yeahbutnobut

Aren't there also some oils that repel insects? Look out for bpals that contain lemongrass, citronella or any lemony scent-they are renowned for their use as natural insect repellants. You can use them as room fragrance I think that cedar and cypress and rosemary may also keep the little blighters at bay (though I think those oils are for getting rid of moths, the lemony ones are for mosquitos and so on.)

London I have high hopes for this one as I am a Londoner, so I hope the scent inspired by my home lives up to expectations. In the imp: oh I say, gorgeous gorgeous pure English rose! I looove that nostalgic and romantic rose smell. This smells identical to a 'Tea Rose' perfume my godmother has. I think this is going to be a good one! On skin: pure rose, gorgeous rose, this is a fresh, crisp rose-beautiful. And oh-so English. It's also got a nice dry undertone, like fragrant pot pourri, but with out the artificial smell that most pot pourris have these days-so it’s like a bowl of dried rose petals with nothing else added. Very sophisticated and stately. Half an hour later: the gorgeous crisp tea rose lingers, and I swear there's a hint of violet too. Verdict: this has got to be one of the best rose perfumes I've ever smelt. It makes me feel all cosy inside, this nostalgic yet youthful crisp tart rose smell-it's the quintessential English rose, this is. I will definitely consider getting a bottle of this!

Black Pearl In the imp: sweet, almost violety light floral (probably the iris) with coconut and the dark nuttiness of roasted hazelnuts. Wet on skin: the iris and coconut have a nice, fresh, cool sweetness, almost aquatic. The hazelnut adds a nice edge. And there is the unmistakable white musk. Dry on skin: the hazelnut is more noticable now with the iris-coconut mixture still prominent. It reminds me of those parma violet sweets and nuts-an unusual but very nice mix. And the musk is lovely…white musk has always been a note that goes nicely on my skin. It's delicate and pretty, perfect for summer as I find this smell quite 'cool', like a dip in cool water. Verdict: it fades out quickly on me, but I love this sublime, delicate smell. The iris/violets, coconut and musk make a gorgeous combination, with the hazelnut adding a nutty edge which, on me, isn't overwhelming, which is good. Perfect for summer evenings.

Fae In the imp: fruity (peachy, definitely) and sweet with a hint of liquorice or anise!! A very 'playful' smell, I think. Wet on skin: still that same peach-liquorice smell, with a deeper smell coming through-probably the oak moss? I think I can make out the citrus from the bergamot. Dry on skin: the liquorice smell is gone, and a lovely, light peach smell remains. I can just imagine a playful, frisky little fairy when I smell this. The distinct Earl Grey smell of bergamot is coming through, adding a refreshing touch, and I think I can make out the sweetness of heliotrope in the background. This is a perfect scent for spring or summer, I think, because of it's light, sparkling ambience. 15 mins later: all these scents are mingling quite nicely. A lovely sweet fruitiness that isn't sickly sweet, it brings to mind the 'fairy phase' of my childhood where I was obsessed with all things fairy like. This fairy wears a peach-pink dress and has a perky grin on her face as she flitters about, spreading her light bouncy smell everywhere. It's got a zingy tartness that is probably the peach and bergamot, with heliotrope and white musk mellowing it out, there's also the slight hint of something green in the background. Half an hour later: the musk is becoming more prominent, with the peach and bergamot still noticeable. Verdict: this is such a nice, youthful smell, it's bright and bouncy with a gentle sweetness and hint of mischief. Very aptly named. I might consider getting more as I love fairies, and this is the perfect fairy smell.

Othello In the imp: whoa, this smells like a rich, posh perfume! This is a very 'perfumey' smell, very heady and floral. I can make out the rose and the musk. Wet on skin: omg this reminds me of something my godmother wears! (she loves rose perfumes too) Because of this, this makes me feel cosy inside…it's a rich, heady, heavy rose floral, with deep exotic undertones. Dry on skin: it's become sweeter but it's still similar to when it was wet, still that sweet heavy deep rose and musk. Very nice, very sumptuous and sophisticated. As I smell, the rose is getting stronger. 15 mins later: this doesn't morph on my skin as other BPAL scents have done, still retaining it's classy aroma of rose-musk, which seems to get more and more prominent. Verdict: This is very mature, sexy, luxuriant and rich, heady rose and spicy musk. It's not masculine, for me, it's very feminine, very 'classy' like a posh French perfume. Reminds me so much of my godmother and a certain perfume she wears, which makes it even more special for me. But it may be a bit too 'mature' for the likes of me. I like it though.

March Hare In the imp: fruity, sweet apricot jam. Yum. Reminds me of my mum's home made apricot jam, but sweeter. Hints of oranges/lemons as well. Wet on skin: still apricot jam but now there's an almondy note coming through. Very sweet and yummy. I want to eat my wrist. Dry on skin: now there's some spiciness coming though. That's probably the clove. I'm sure there's cinnamon in there too. It's warm and has autumnal/festive connotations but the apricots add a summery ambience. It brings to mind a saucepan filled with fresh spiced apricot jam in a welcoming, sunlit kitchen with the spice cupboard door open. I think this would be the perfect smell to use as a room fragrance because a smell like this conveys a welcoming and friendly atmosphere. 15 mins later: the cloves are really coming out now and mingling nicely with the apricot. Freshly baked apricot tart with a spicy pastry crust? Served with mulled wine? Mmm! The spice is getting more and more intense, but the sweetness makes this a really approachable smell. However, it's starting to remind me of one of those spice scented candles, but that's no bad thing. Half an hour later: the cloves have become 'drier' as a note, and the scent is more of a sweet spice than ever before. Very uplifting and warming. The apricots are there but more in the background now, it's the turn of the spices to take over this scent. Verdict: with it's apricot and spice fusion, it's an amalgam of summer and Christmas-a great combination of the happiest times of the year and the nostalgia they bring. Cheerful, warm, welcoming, sweet and edible. Perfect as a room fragrance especially when guests are invited for tea. And it reminds me of my mum's home-made jam, which adds even more of a comforting feeling to this. However, it may be a little bit too sweet on my skin, but either way, I like it.

I think this is how it's pronounced: Ten-NOCH (with a ch like cheese) tit-LAN. That's how someone on a travel documentary said it anyway.

Thanks. I knew it was Gaelic but I know nothing about how to pronounce Gaelic (well, until I read this thread-now I know a few!)

I'm glad I'm not the only one who says Bee-Pal as the pronounciation! seems I'm with the majority! Chypre is, I think, pronounced 'Chee-pruh' I know that in French, the name 'Chypre' means Cyprus, not sure if that's linked to the perfume or what. How do you pronounce these names: Oisin (I say it Oy-zin...rhymes with raisin...though I'm pretty sure that's not how it's pronounced!) Aeval Yggdrasil

Black Lotus In the imp: sweet, with a slightly 'boozy' smell, like a sweet alcoholic spirit. There's a dark sugary smell about this-it's candy sweet, but a candy sweetness spiked with darkness. Interesting. Wet on skin: this smells slightly like dark caramel or treacle syrup, with a hint of booze. There's also a hint of resin, like Egyptian incenses. I think that must be the myrrh. I can just about detect the lotus but this has been darkened, indeed. Dry on skin: whoa, there's a sinister and frightening sharpness to this now. Still sweet but there's something piercing, slightly resinous and probably woody or perhaps camphorous or sharp herbal-even like wood polish! It's very intense on the nose, quite jarring-either it's going weird on my skin or this scent really has been made with Set in mind…it certainly conjures up dark, unsettling moods and is not a scent to be worn lightly. I can't find the lotus in this as much as before. After 15 mins: I cannot find bubblegum like others mentioned, but the sharpness is sort of more like a woody or smoky smell, it's dry and harsh, like a sandstorm in a vicious desert ruled over by the dark god Set. There's sweetness to it underneath but it's definitely become corrupted. After half an hour: thankfully the wood polish like smell is softening but the smell is still a sharp, woody smell. It's sandalwood, perhaps, and it's not too bad now. In fact, there's also a smell of charred, smoking incense-when loose incense has started to char and burn with a more smoky than resiny smell-which is quite apt. There's also a sweetness in the background from the amber and the lotus, and maybe the myrrh is making it more of a treacle-y sweetness ie a dark, rich sweetness. After 1 hour: yes, the lotus is there, I can smell it better now, it softens the smell out more. The charred dark woody smell still lingers but not as strongly as before, but it's still there, hitting my nose before the sweet lotus and amber come in. It's more tolerable now. Verdict: it's sinister and wicked, and really does stick to the description. It conjures up images of a corrupted, darkened Egyptian desert where the sky is blackened with smoke and storm clouds, the sun is gone forever and the ruins are plagued by curses and the sands hide demons waiting to be awakened. It's sweetness with an evil side. Unfortunately it's not really my thing. I was hoping it would be more lotus-y, and this does happen over time, but I much prefer the lighter, fruity sweetness of Blood Lotus. Maybe I'll see if it grows on me.

Morocco In the imp: I don't know but here it smells like musk and/or resins. And woods. Yup it's a woody smell. Probably sandalwood but someone else said cedar, so it could be that as well. Wet on skin: wood wood wood! Maybe a bit of patchouli or musk, but I think it's sandalwood and something deeper and 'greener', maybe the cedar. It's sweetening out, I can just about detect some spices underneath the woods. Maybe even a hint of something lemony? Dry on skin: this is quite nice, an exotic mix of woody notes and something else, possibly the musk, and some spice. This is a very deep dark scent, remeniscent of the enclosed souks in Marrakech selling all sorts of exotic wares. The wood is very strong in this and it's almost masculine (in fact, I'd imagine it would smell oh-so-sexay on a man!!!) but it's lovely and soothing. I think this would be nice in an oil burner as a room fragrance. It's very sexy and heady, perfect for the night time. For some weird reason, I think this smell will go well with Lush's Tramp. I think it's the initial earthy 'deep green' notes in them both. After 15 minutes: this is amazingly complex. There's something rich and deep, I think it's the woods and musk combination, and it's very mysterious. I don't know but there is definetely a warm, comforting spice smell in this. It's like the warmth of a sunset, like the one I glimpsed over Marrakech, and evokes the magical star filled nights I saw every night when I was on holiday in Morocco, or a richly furnished tent or souk stall filled with exotic carpets and Berber jewellery and silverware. After 30 mins: I can't pick out the notes so much but it is still, to me, an earthy, woody musk, then hot spices, and something slightly sweet at the end, but it isn't overly sweet. I can even detect a bit of smoke. The colours deep green and sunset shades come to mind when I smell this. I can't smell carnations or vanilla like others, just sandalwood and musk and spice-what spices? Probably cardamom and saffron, I'm sure. Maybe one of the spicy notes is carnation because that has quite a sweet spicy smell, I think-so that probably solves the mystery of what that lovely sweet spicy note is at the end of each sniff. And the sandalwood here is so exotic and sensuous, I think. I can see why others think of deserts because this has a 'hot' smell, but to me it's more of the comforting warmth of a desert sunset when the heat is still there but it's mellowing out, and the sky is tinted with fiery shades. Verdict: this is totally different to what I usually wear as it seems more deep, woody and mysterious, but I think it's growing on me-I feel compelled to sniff sniff sniff! The musk and sandalwood mingle to make a gorgeously sexy scent with a hot, smoky spicy blend in the background adding to the fire. It definitely brings up images of Marrakech and it's famous evening market and the exotic marketplaces that can be found there, which to me are also happy memories of my holiday there. It's a very soothing smell, like a gentle ray of the setting sun wrapping round you, warming you and comforting you. I'm undecided as to whether I'll get a bottle but I love it right now. EDIT June 16: I tried another imp of this stuff today, and it smells even more beautiful...the carnation! The carnation!!! the last Morocco imp I tried was all cedar and sandalwood, very nice, but there was no carnation at all...but this one has it, a beautiful spicy-sweet carnation note that has made me fall in love with this once more. *swoons*

Eclipse In the imp: almonds, almonds and more almonds! From first sniff, this is pure marzipan and macaroons. Yummy. I used to hate the taste of bitter almond flavouring (love almond as a nut though) but I like the smell. There is a hint of frankincense but it's the almonds that grab my nose first. Wet on skin: still very almondy but there's something else. It's a darker, deeper smell-I don’t know what it is…oh my, now it smells like Christmas cake with marzipan icing!!! It's quite a yummy smell. But it also smells quite smoky and burnt like bonfire smoke, which is quite disturbing…There is a sweet foody smell other than almond, that's for sure-it's probably vanilla and cinnamon? That probably explains the Xmas cake smell. There is an undercurrent of something deep, dark, smoky and sultry here underneath that almond overload. Dry on skin: same as wet really, first it's a blast of almond, but now there's something quite sophisticated underneath this. It's a warm smell, no doubt, but I can just about detect a lovely sweet floral in there-methinks that could be heliotrope even though I don't know what it smells like. It's becoming more sweet and subtle, a nice warm ambience and the burnt smell is gone, which is good. I think I am beginning to pick out the cinnamon in this too. After 15 minutes: oh wow, this has mellowed out quite nicely and has changed completely! It's not as intense as before, and the almond is not as full on as it was, it's fading out. The smell is now just 'barely there' and it's a nice sweet subtle smell that is warm and comforting. I think this could be a mix of heliotropes and vanilla and maybe some cinnamon. But thankfully the smoky bonfire smell is completely gone. It's a great contrast to the intense smell that occurred when it was wet. I don't know but it reminds me of something I've smelt before, it's lovely, gorgeous and gentle. After 30 mins: ditto above, that same gentle sweet warm smell, but now I can just about detect something brighter and sharper coming though. This could be almonds returning very slightly, or it could be the frankincense, which I hope becomes stronger. Yes, I think I can make out the frankincense in this sweetness, which adds an interesting edge to the dry phase of the scent. After an hour: the sweet smell is still lingering on my arm, but I swear the almond has returned, but is certainly not as strong as before-it's just there in the background, making me smell like a bit like a sweet macaroon! Nice! Verdict: at first it was a really strong dark almond and burnt spicy fruit cake mixture, very strange but tolerable, but the dry phase is wonderful, sweet, gentle, bright and warm and more subtle. This really does seem to encapsulate an eclipse in scent, from totality to the return of the sun-it's dark and smoky at first with flares of almond but then it becomes brighter like the sun is returning, and the smell gets lighter, sweeter and lovelier.

Cheshire Cat In the imp: zingy, fruity, refreshing. Sort of like eau de cologne but more fruity and berry scented. Wet on skin: this is a mad little mixture! I can really detect musky undertones beneath the fruitiness. I can definitely smell the camomile too. And the grapefruit-luckily it's not too strong. I'm not too keen on grapefruit as I find it quite bitter (as food) but this isn't bitter at all. It's a bouncy, youthful scent, I think. Dry on skin: now I can smell the lavender underneath it all! It's now predominantly camomile and fruit with lavender. This is a lovely smell-it seems ideal for summer I think, it's laid back yet refreshing at the same time. It puts images in my head of relaxed summer afternoons lazing in the garden by the lavender bush eating a fruit salad with a cup of camomile tea! After 15 minutes: mmm, crazy, sweet and fruity! The red currant has returned and the grapefruit still gives it a refreshing buzz, but there's some lovely florals in the background too. It's a typical 'perfume' smell (not a bad thing) and it's the sort of smell I'm sure my mum would say went well on me, as I used to wear a lot of perfumes similar to this when I was younger. After half an hour: sweet perky currants and camomile. The grapefruit citrus-ness has calmed down a lot and is making way for the sweet juicy red currants and the comforting camomile. There's also a mellow undertone, which is probably from lavender and perhaps the musk. Now it feels more chilled out, conjuring up yet more images of warm sunny afternoons. Verdict: this is lovely and has come at the right time of year-it's perfect for the spring and early pleasantly warm days of summer. It changes from the mad, perky Cheshire cat with it's crazy and zingy fruit scent to a cat lazing in the sun and chilling out, with it's calmer camomile and gentle currant-floral notes with a hint of darker musk behind it all. Not sure if I'll buy a big bottle but I really like it for now. Edit: after a few hours, the smell becomes a sort of darker, musky dewberry on me, which is nice but I did prefer the first fruity-floral rush this oil gave me.

I think Blood Lotus would go well with a Melting Marshmallow Moment or Creamy Candy, I think they smell quite similar. BL has a bit more of an edge at first but then becomes all sweet and yummy...

Blood Lotus I'm looking forward to this…another Egyptian themed scent. My experiences of lotus before BPAL are that it's lovely on me-a fresh light floral. Let's hope it works with this one…whoa this oil is DARK! Isn't this more like Black Lotus? Oh well, here goes… In the imp: sweet! This is a lovely sweet yummy smell. Like sweet cherry cola. I know a lot of people have complained about this bubble gummish smell but I love it. It's a light floral sweetness (no doubt that's the lotus) with cherries. Kinda reminds me of Lush's Creamy Candy bath but more fruity-floral. Wet on skin: the sweetness is mellowing out and there's a deeper, sharper undercurrent coming through. Still reminds me of sweet cherry candy though. I quite like it. Dry on skin: ooooh now it's more sophisticated than the sweet candy smell in the bottle. There's a fruity fresh but quite dark and sharp cherry-ish scent, which I think is dragon's blood (BPAL is getting me aquainted to this particular smell), but that's underlined by a lovely delicate powdery floral smell-it's lotus! I think lotus likes me on me lotus is a sweet, youthful, feminine and innocent note which I know others might find sickly-sweet, but I like it. I like the way this oil is sharp and cutting at first sniff but then the gentle lotus lingers seconds after. I still want to lick my wrists (because it smells yummy) but I won't-that will spoil it! After 20 mins: the lotus is more prominent now, sweet and comforting but the dragon's blood is still there in the background-both smells seem more 'mixed' now. I think I can detect a bit of almond, but that could be the way dragon's blood reacts on my skin, as this happened with another blend. After 30 mins: The scent seems to be maturing on my skin nicely. It actually smells as though the scents of lotus and dragon's blood are competing as to which is the most prominent scent! (reminds me of the oil's description-the battle of Horus and Set!) Sometimes it's sweet and gentle, other times it's bittersweet and dark. Nice contrasting duality displayed in this oil. After 1 hour: There's something comforting to me about this powdery lotus smell that now lingers on my skin-it's very sweet but tolerable-there's still a very slight cherry-almond background but it's not as sharp as it was before, it's muted now. Methinks this will go well with Lush's Rock Star, Candy Fluff and Melting Marshmallow. Edit: omg! The smell is now starting to remind me of an Egyptian lotus perfume I once sniffed...and that was a gorgeous perfume. The lotus is really becoming recognisable now and I like it! Verdict: this one's a keeper-a fruity, sweet floral with a candy sweet innocent aspect, but with a slightly sinister undertone, which mellows out to a cosy sweet powdery scent. Me likes!

Serpent's Kiss In the imp: yeesh, this smells frighteningly like strong alcohol. There's also an undertone of cherries or something fruity. Smells like a cross between a really strong alcoholic spirit-the kind that would knock you out from the first sip, a mix of turpentine and cherries (yikes!) and something medicinal. Bittersweet and harsh. On a tissue: The bitter cherry scent is still there but there is a definite spicy undertone, like sweet cinnamon. Still smells like a sore throat pastille though. Wet on skin: still bittersweet medicinal solvent-cherry smell. Scary smell! Like a snakebite of scent, I think. As it dries, the bitterness is coupled with a 'hot' smell (yes, it actually felt warm on my nostrils) with hints of a deep earthy undertone-is that the vetivert coming through? I can also smell aniseed, I'm sure. There's something red, fiery and dangerous about this smell. Not really my thing, but it's very interesting indeed! I would also imagine that this smell would unblock a bunged up nose if you have a cold!!! Dry on skin: this isn't really me, I'm afraid. Too medicinal and sharp for my liking. It's a really piercing smell now, with that bittersweet smell, aniseed and hot spices. I was hoping the vetiver would be more prominent though. I'm still unsure as to whether I like it or not. It's not a perfume I'd wear but something about that harsh hot smell makes me want to sniff it more. I'm hoping it will mellow out with time. After 15 minutes: the bitterness has mellowed out a bit. There's a piercing, quite fresh, sweet smell like cherries but I suspect it's resiny too. I suppose this is dragon's blood, but I'm not sure, I think there's aniseed or cinnamon in this too. It's not as bad as last time-it's actually starting to remind me of cherry sweets. It still makes my nostrils tingle though-a very strange effect! After 30 minutes: this is getting slightly more bearable. But it's calmed down-the cherry/dragon's blood is still there with the fire of cinnamon and other spices and I can detect the vetiver in the background. *sniffs again* yup, the vetiver is there, adding an earthy and dark, slightly humid undertone-like the deep grasses and earth where the serpent would crawl into after biting you. And as the minutes pass, the vetiver gets more and more prominent, adding an interesting depth and contrast to the hot spicy dragon's bloody smell. i think i can even detect something very slightly lemony or maybe even cardamom with the vetiver, which is strange but very nice. Verdict: whoa. This is the most unusual perfume I've ever tried (well, this is probably what to expect with BPAL) and it's intense! At first it seems too much like a cherry throat pastille or cough remedy-medicinal harsh cherry, then it was fiery-it doesn't have a comforting warmth like most spice/cinnamon blends tend to have, but a lethal, harsh heat, fiery and unpredictable. But as it mellows out on my skin, vetiver comes through, softening the fire. It's like a snakebite of intense and almost unbearable scent at first, which then fades away into a mellower, earthier scent, but still dark, brooding, and unsettling. An interesting experience but not one for me I'm afraid. Maybe it'll grow on me, but for now, it's going for the swap.

Khephra Unfortunately the imp of this leaked completely so this scent review is based on me rubbing it desperately on my wrist which is not the best thing to do!!! I have not heard of the 'Midnight Sun' in Egypt (isn't it too far south of the Arctic circle for such a thing to happen there? ) and for a scent named after a scarab god, I was slightly worried it would smell reminiscent of dung lol but of course, it smells far more pleasant! On to the review! This is very interesting. It's a very heavy, deep, sweet, rich, dark and mysterious scent. The dark and warm aura of this scent does seem to evoke a warm Egyptian night or the contrasting aspects of the sun and the darkest hour of night. Very exotic, I can just imagine a luxuriously furnished tent in an Egyptian bazaar filled with magical potions and perfumes, or the boudoir of an Egyptian sorceress! This has an old fashioned, grandiose air about it, sort of reminiscent of a perfume that I smelt on someone else. To be honest this perfume may be suited to someone older than me and may be too heavy for me, (but that's probably due to me slathering the remains on my wrist in desperation as opposed to lightly dabbing the imp wand as I was hoping to do!) but I think this would be nice as a room scent. I can't really pick out any individual notes but I think I can detect dark Egyptian musk (I think), some woody notes (sandalwood perhaps?) and definitely some dark amber. I hope to get an intact imp of this next time to do a more in depth and detailed review. As a fan of ancient Egypt, I would like another imp of this, maybe not a big bottle but an imp, either as a sophisticated evening scent or a room fragrance. Edit: after 2 hours, a mellower, softer, dark amber remains on my skin, which is very nice.

Tintagel Alright! My first ever BPAL experience and review-and it's a good one…I got this imp in a swap. In bottle: Sweet and fruity (probably the berries) with a fresh herbal/woody/resiny undertone, -maybe juniper or dragon's blood? Wet on skin: the fresh resiny scent becomes clearer and the sweetness is still there but it's less overpowering. Dry on skin: now a lovely warm spicy woody scent comes to the fore. Yup, that's the mulled wine coming through-a lovely cinnamon smell. There's also a sweet light fresh note in there I can't identify, but it's quite nice. There are also hints of woods and herbs mixed in with sweet berries flitting through every now and then. I swear there's even a hint of almond in there. It's quite a festive smell, in fact, with it's cinnamon and berry scent, quite comforting. It has an old fashioned kind of vibe-but in a positive way. Sort of pot-pourri-ish but still pleasant. Verdict: for my first ever BPAL, this is quite interesting. I don't know whether I'll get a big bottle but for now I like this. It's very different to what I normally wear. To me, this is a perfume I would wear around the autumn or winter months, as those are the seasons the smell seems to evoke, for me. It actually reminds me of a Christmas fragrance oil I was given last year, but nicer.

Here's another question. Why were the single notes discontinued (and some never released)? Were they an LE? If so, that would explain it. Either that or the people at BPAL were worried that others would use them to attempt to duplicate the scents!!

I'm new here and I'm planning on getting Paypal asap. A few questions though (these would probably be aimed at UK members)...I haven't got a bank account yet but I am planning to get one. Problem is, i'm not sure what sort of account will support Paypal-I know that UK accounts accept it, but I'm not sure if all of them do. Another problem is that technically, i cannot get a student account until late September when I go to uni. And since I haven't got a full time job, the only account I can get will be very basic-it may not even allow me to write cheques...so I doubt they'll allow paypal! If you're from the UK and know more about this, could you please help me? Argh, the frustration! I want to buy stuff and getting an account is so complicated!