Are bpal blends all-natural?

[joseybird]

Essence and Alchemy is not the only book about natural essences that say that there are plants/flowers which resist scent harvesting, so I believe her.

 

I believe, also, that there are some floral EOs that are so obscenely pricey to make that they'll never be available natural oil form--I'm talking about several thousand $ an ounce or more.

 

I'm interested in the idea of recreating certain floral scents by combining other EOs...I had never heard of this before. I've read through several books on perfumes and perfume-making, though not as many as I wish, so maybe I just haven't encountered it yet. Books on perfumes are so hard to find in library systems =( Even my college library and the New York Public Library have practically nothing!!

 

According to the great book by the perfumer Mandy Aftel, 'Essence and Alchemy', ...."lilies, along with a number of other florals, resist any form of scent harvesting. In fact, it is a telltale sign that a perfume is made from synthetics if it contains any of the following flowers, because they cannot be rendered naturally: freesia, honeysuckle, violet, tulip, lily, gardenia, heliotrope, orchid, lilac and lily of the valley."

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I think it's really odd that the author states these flowers resist any form of scent harvesting. While it may be impossible to extract essential oils from them through distillation, it's certainly not impossible to extract their scents through other methods. For example, enfleurage is a technique where you layer purified fat and blossoms between glass plates, and the fat absorbs the flower scent (which can then be washed with a solvent, etc, to get the scent out). I've read you can use high proof alcohol and blossoms to make a tincture (of lilacs, for example). You can also extract scents into oil by gently heating them. So, I have no idea why Aftel said that... I guess she was talking only about essential oils?

 

If Beth is using stuff from her garden occasionally, I would almost guarantee she's using one of the above methods or something similar at least part of the time, since she'd have to have quite a plot of land to grow enough botanicals to extract essential oils through distillation. The ratio by weight of plant matter to essential oil extracted is usually something like 50-2000:1.

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[amunnefret]

I would be extremely surprised if all the oils used were essential oils as many are sensitising and can cause severe dermal irritation even when diluted.

However as Amrita pointed out there are other ways of extracting floral aromas.

 

Maceration is another technique - plants/flowers crammed into jars of oil , sealed and left in sunlight for weeks/months on end with the plant matter being renewed every two weeks. Anybody who's done this with vanilla pods will know how strongly scented that oil can be!

 

Ofcourse there are many many companies world wide who manufacture these base materials - no need for the lab to till the fields themselves

[Lucretia]

I am not that familiar with perfumes. But Beth is no idiot (if fact, she is brilliant!) and if the oils were dangerous she would say so. I've purchased other oils, and they have specifically, as you mentioned, said that they were not for contact with skin. But I'm sure Beth knows this and reasons that her oils are in fact composed differently and are not dangerous.

 

I'm not concerned in the least.

 

edit for spelling

Edited February 21, 2005 by Lucretia

[amrita]

I'm interested in the idea of recreating certain floral scents by combining other EOs...I had never heard of this before. 

 

I have a blend called "Carnation Memories" from Naturesgift.com that smells like real pinks to me... they made it by combining ylang ylang, clove, basil, and some other essential oils... It's pretty impressive.

 

I'm also really interested in how she makes her musks. We know they aren't synthetic, and they aren't genuine (from the animal), so how does she do it???

 

Maybe Beth will write a book one day...

[joseybird]

Oh, I don't think BPAL oils are dangerous! ^^;; I didn't mean to imply that at all...I'm merely curious about general formulation =3

 

Judging from what I know about EOs, and from the samples I have of EOs, i would say that the blends couldn't be 100% EOs. Besides a 100% EO blend not being skin-safe, EOs are insanely pungent--waaay to pungent to wear as perfume, imo (my skin EATS fragrances, including BPALs--everything lasts at most a few hours on me, even pure parfums; I accidently got a bit of undiluted EO residue on my finger one morning--it was still going strong 36 hours later). If BPALs were 100% pure EO, I would think they'd smell waaay stronger than they do (which would be BAD! lol).

 

I am not that familiar with perfumes. But Beth is no idiot (if fact, she is brilliant!) and if the oils were dangerous she would say so. I've purchased other oils, and they have specifically, as you mentioned, said that they were not for contact with skin. But I'm sure Beth knows this and reasons that her oils are in fact composed differently and are not dangerous.

 

I'm not concerned in the least.

 

edit for spelling

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I'm interested in the idea of recreating certain floral scents by combining other EOs...I had never heard of this before. 

 

I have a blend called "Carnation Memories" from Naturesgift.com that smells like real pinks to me... they made it by combining ylang ylang, clove, basil, and some other essential oils... It's pretty impressive.

 

I'm also really interested in how she makes her musks. We know they aren't synthetic, and they aren't genuine (from the animal), so how does she do it???

 

Maybe Beth will write a book one day...

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The more books on perfumes and natural essences and perfume-making the BETTER! Go Beth Go!

 

Hmmm...well, I know that in order to perfectly replicate the scent of a whole flower, one usually must rely on more than just the absolute. I've also heard of perfumer's replicating the "idea" of a flower or the "experiance" of a flower without replicating the flower's EO smell. But whether the flower's EO is included in the blend I have no idea.

[Witch's Dagger]

Hmmm...

 

I've been putting essential oils straight on my skin (with exceptions, such as cinnamon and cassia) for years with no problems. There are also other companies which sell pure essential oils to be used as annointing oils. I don't think the "essential oils are dangerous" is a hard fact, but rather an opinion.

 

I've also heard that some people are more sensitive to them, and are therefore recommended to get a carrier oil.

 

Therefore, I suspect that the oils Beth uses are essential oils. Certainly, people have experienced the burning in blends which contain cinnamon oil. I'm guessing the ones that are 85% are diluted, but that the others are pure essential oils. I'm hesitant, concerning my own experiences, to think that all essential oils are dangerous. Some are (like cinnamon), while others aren't.

[tart]

Discussing essential oils vs. perfume oils:

http://www.bpal.org/index.php?showtopic=6290&hl=

http://www.bpal.org/index.php?showtopic=1953&hl= [merged with this thread~qs]

Edited February 21, 2005 by quantum spice

[VelvetSky]

If Ms. Atel states that those flowers resist any form of scent harvesting, I tend to believe what she's saying. Her book describes in detail all methods of extraction, including enfleurage. If these flower essences were able to be extracted in a usable and cost-efficient way by the perfume industry, I tend to think she wouldn't have made the statement.

 

 

Also from Fischer-Rizzi, Susanne in the Complete Aromatherapy Handbook: Enfleurage is the most expensive extraction method and is the only one that won’t alter the chemical makeup (therefore, fragrance) of some botanicals such as lilac. As a result, commercial production of some essential oils is impractical.

 

 

 

 

 

According to the great book by the perfumer Mandy Aftel, 'Essence and Alchemy', ...."lilies, along with a number of other florals, resist any form of scent harvesting. In fact, it is a telltale sign that a perfume is made from synthetics if it contains any of the following flowers, because they cannot be rendered naturally: freesia, honeysuckle, violet, tulip, lily, gardenia, heliotrope, orchid, lilac and lily of the valley."

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I think it's really odd that the author states these flowers resist any form of scent harvesting. While it may be impossible to extract essential oils from them through distillation, it's certainly not impossible to extract their scents through other methods. For example, enfleurage is a technique where you layer purified fat and blossoms between glass plates, and the fat absorbs the flower scent (which can then be washed with a solvent, etc, to get the scent out). I've read you can use high proof alcohol and blossoms to make a tincture (of lilacs, for example). You can also extract scents into oil by gently heating them. So, I have no idea why Aftel said that... I guess she was talking only about essential oils?

 

If Beth is using stuff from her garden occasionally, I would almost guarantee she's using one of the above methods or something similar at least part of the time, since she'd have to have quite a plot of land to grow enough botanicals to extract essential oils through distillation. The ratio by weight of plant matter to essential oil extracted is usually something like 50-2000:1.

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[Cats]

According to the great book by the perfumer Mandy Aftel, 'Essence and Alchemy', ...."lilies, along with a number of other florals, resist any form of scent harvesting.  In fact, it is a telltale sign that a perfume is made from synthetics if it contains any of the following flowers, because they cannot be rendered naturally:  freesia, honeysuckle, violet, tulip, lily, gardenia, heliotrope, orchid, lilac and lily of the valley."

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I've seen absolutes of several of those, but then it's only been a few years that I've seen absolutes at all -- is it a newish type of scent harvesting, perhaps? I know I can't use the solvent extracted absolutes, but I have a CO2 coffee absolute that's just to die for and I can use it with no problem. I have some diluted Vanilla absolute as well, that's incredible.

[antimony]

Supercritical CO2 extraction is the coolest thing *ever*.

 

I did work on CO2 extraction as a potential mining method for the surface of Mars while I was in college. The same technology is being used to extract essential oils and because CO2 can be pushed into the supercritical region at just 31.1 degC, so just over room temperature, it can be used to extract substances that are heat-sensitive.

 

Because the only reagent you need is CO2, which is obviously quite cheap, and the extraction equipment is getting more common (the same technique is growing in popularity as a method to decaffinate coffee beans!) I doubt CO2 extracted EO's are much more expensive than their steam-distilled countrparts.

 

I suspect the book you guys are referring to was right a couple of years ago, but may now be out-of-date.

 

*updated the link to a better, more informative one

Edited February 22, 2005 by antimony

[VelvetSky]

Thanks for the info, antimony. That's very true. The book was published in 2001.

 

 

 

 

I suspect the book you guys are referring to was right a couple of years ago, but may now be out-of-date.

 

*updated the link to a better, more informative one

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[pamiu]

I hope this is resolved soon. I have liver and detox system damage, and man-made fragrance chemicals are something I have to avoid if I don't want to get seriously ill. The reason I've been buying BPAL was my impression (from quote riddel posted from the BPAL site) that none of them had man-made fragrance chemicals in them.

ETA: above included to add context

 

Beth does not use synthetics, period.  No worries.

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Thank you so much for the reassurance!

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Just playing Devil's Advocate for the moment: it's not just man-made products that are heptatoxic. Many natural compounds are very dangerous indeed. For example: oils high in safrole (e.g. Sassafrass, Camphor, many members of the Cinnamomum family), can be argued to cause liver damage, while oils rich in thujone (most Sages) can cause bio-accumulative nerve damage.

 

Not all synthetic ingredients are dangerous. Conversely, not all natural ingredients are safe. Dosage and application methods are also important factors, here. It is not sufficient to make the generalisation that man-made fragrance chemicals will make you ill, and imply that natural ones will not.

 

Thus, I don't know how you can be "reassured" with one consumer's say-so and little in the way of concrete facts. This thread is composed entirely of speculative commentary, personal interpretations and assumptions.

 

One way to be truly reassured about your well-being, is to understand which synthetics and natural ingredients might aggravate your condition, and if a low topical dosage is a consideration, then seek assurance directly from the manufacturer that there is no cause for concern.

 

If you are concerned about your health, don't listen to us but rather communicate directly with Beth. She is more than qualified to address your concerns.

 

Just my 0.02 euros.

 

Iain.

Edited February 22, 2005 by pamiu

[Mofo]

Just playing Devil's Advocate for the moment: it's not just man-made products that are heptatoxic. Many natural compounds are very dangerous indeed. For example: oils high in safrole (e.g. Sassafrass, Camphor, many members of the Cinnamomum family), can be argued to cause liver damage, while oils rich in thujone (most Sages) can cause bio-accumulative nerve damage.

 

Not all synthetic ingredients are dangerous. Conversely, not all natural ingredients are safe. Dosage and application methods are also important factors, here. It is not sufficient to make the generalisation that man-made fragrance chemicals will make you ill, and imply that natural ones will not.

 

Thus, I don't know how you can be "reassured" with one consumer's say-so and little in the way of concrete facts. This thread is composed entirely of speculative commentary, personal interpretations and assumptions.

 

One way to be truly reassured about your well-being, is to understand which synthetics and natural ingredients might aggravate your condition, and if a low topical dosage is a consideration, then seek assurance directly from the manufacturer that there is no cause for concern.

 

If you are concerned about your health, don't listen to us but rather communicate directly with Beth. She is more than qualified to address your concerns.

 

Just my 0.02 euros.

 

Iain.

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he's right you know, it's a few years since I took my aromatherapy course but the list of oils with a big 'ole *caution* next to them is quite long. You really should contact Beth - we don't have a whole ingredient list to the oils.

 

As for gardenia not being scent harvested, tell that to the whole tiare monoi oil industry.

[Morrighana]

Thus, I don't know how you can be "reassured" with one consumer's say-so and little in the way of concrete facts. This thread is composed entirely of speculative commentary, personal interpretations and assumptions.

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While I completely agree with you---in that there are still dangerous natural components and someone with severe health issues should still contact the lab directly just in case---I have to point out that I am not just making random speculations. I have it straight from Beth's mouth (well, keyboard at least) that she does not use synthetics.

[Cats]

It is not sufficient to make the generalisation that man-made fragrance chemicals will make you ill, and imply that natural ones will not.

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Hi Iain,

 

I very much appreciate your taking the time to comment. I do agree that not all EOs are safe, especially not for all people. I've also studied herbs and EOs for almost 2 decades now and there are several I avoid and others I use with caution and watch for any negative reactions.

 

However for ME the generalisation that manmade fragrance chemicals will make ME ill while natural generally ones will not is literally true (and I was speaking specifically about myself).

 

I must avoid manmade chemicals because almost all of them are broken down through the cytochrome p450 detox pathway. Things that are generally safe for people with no cytochrome p450 damage can be extremely toxic to me, simply because anything that goes through that pathway can't be broken down well by my body and continues to circulate and accumulate. That does include some natural substances as well, such as caffeine, alcohol and some herbs, which I avoid.

 

My damage is specific to the cytochrome p450 detox pathways (from solvent and pesticide exposure). So to me man-made chemicals generally cause serious problems from even minute exposures (including things that are generally harmless to the healthy, such as artificial colours, fragrances and flavours, preservatives, even mild detergents, anything petro-based, almost every drug, etc), while some herbs that can be hepatoxic but are not broken down through that pathway I can use judiciously.

 

My comment on being reassured is because it was pointed out that Beth has stated she uses only natural ingredients, and I have been pointed to the website where that is stated.

 

I will take the time to doublecheck with Ted, as well.

 

And Morrighana, thank you again.

 

edited since I can't type well today

Edited February 22, 2005 by Cats

[joseybird]

Cats, it must be awful and difficult for you to avoid synthetics X_X I hope this is an alright question to ask ^^; but how does one avoid manmade chemicals when they're practically everywhere? Even Lush products contain certain amounts of safe synthetics ( Lush). Or does the type of product matter?

[Cats]

Cats, it must be awful and difficult for you to avoid synthetics X_X  I hope this is an alright question to ask ^^; but how does one avoid manmade chemicals when they're practically everywhere? Even Lush products contain certain amounts of safe synthetics ( Lush).  Or does the type of product matter?

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It's very difficult. I'm about 95% housebound because of it. BPAL is the first perfume I've been able to use in 15+ years, and I dilute them (a LOT) and don't use them daily, just in case of possible sensitisation. I use only homemade soaps made with organic oils, and Paul uses only unscented, fragrance free bodywash and shampoo. We don't buy any cleaners or anything, just use soap, baking powder, and vinegar for cleaning. Almost all the food we buy is organic. It's hard, but better than the seizure like episodes I had so often before we learned what to avoid.

[Macha]

And I hear that Cats' homemade soaps are the...ahem...excuse me...the MEOW.

 

No wonder you're so good at it, Cats. It's just a shame that you've HAD to be.

[ChupaChup]

I haven't had any testing done to find out if I have the same type of sensitivity that you do, Cats, but I have suffered with allergies and found them to be almost completely relieved once I started avoiding any synthetics, especially fragrances, in my personal care products. I was allergic to some of Beth's perfumes at first, especially those with any kind of mint (probably because they are high in terpines?), but I was still in the process of weening myself off of sythetics in my shampoos and shower gel. Now that those are gone, I've found I don't have any problems with BPAL, even mint (yay, I can wear The Star!). I also have to avoid gluten, milk (casein) and soy proteins, apparently I don't digest them well and end up with antigen overload. Like you, I don't want to develop sensitivities to any of my beloved BPAL so I switch them up quite a bit. Good thing there are so many blends I love.

[Diedra]

There is one thing that makes me confused...

Many descriptions of BPAL scents say that there's white musk in them (Black Pearl, Fae, Grandmother of Ghosts, Whitechapel, Zephyr, Embalming Fluid, Endymion, Psyche, Vicomte de Valmont, Bluebeard, Kitsune-Tsuki, Kuang Shi, Juliet, Katharina, Oberon, Oisin and probably some more)

Being an aromatherapist myself, I've been always tought that white musk is a synthetic musk, created as a result of complicated chemical reaction, with a similar smell as a natural "brown" musk, but a way cheaper...

Nowadays, you can buy natural musk products in Japan, France and few other countries only. In most parts of the world selling the real musk is forbidden.

So, are BPAL oils 100% natural or not? I really think it's time for Beth to explain it herself

Edited February 27, 2005 by Diedra

[VelvetSky]

I'd like to make a point. Please understand that I'm not referring to BPAL with this statement...if Beth says the blends are all from 100% natural oils directly from the plant with no synthetics blended in, they are.

 

But it is legal in this country to call something an "essential oil" when in fact it's a synthetic. The buyer needs to beware when it comes to these claims. That's not to say that "synthetic" necessarily means bad....just that "essential oil" does not necessarily mean "directly from the plant and unadulterated by any other substance that isn't naturally occuring".

[Cats]

But it is legal in this country to call something an "essential oil" when in fact it's a synthetic. 

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I'm very surprised by this -- I'd learned that while there's no legal definition of "natural" that "pure essential oil" can only be used if it is indeed the extracted essential oil from plant material (although it can be contaminated by solvents used in extraction process). But that was 15 years ago.

 

If there has been a change in US labelling laws allowing synthetics to be used while still claiming "pure essential oil of X", could you please point me to any citations? This is a very important issue to me healthwise.

 

Thank you very much.

[sarada]

I remember reading at some point that BPAL oils containing "musk" are derived from non-animal natural sources such as floral sources.

 

Whatever they are, they are incredible -- I always avoided musk in the past, and I'm assuming that the ones that I avoided disagreed with me because they were synthetic. But these musks -- especially the red musk, and the "light musks" in perfumes like Ice Queen, are completely unlike anything else I've ever encountered.

 

Anyway, I think they're from floral sources, that was my two cents. I will wait to see what the experts have to say!

[amrita]

I know ambrette seed is a plant source of a musk smell. I've never used mainstream natural or synthetic perfumes so I don't know what genuine or synthetic musk smells like, and I've never smelled ambrette seed straight up, so I can't make any useful comparisons. (I do know I like Beth's "musks"

Edited February 27, 2005 by amrita

[Morrighana]

I know ambrette seed is a plant source of a musk smell.  I've never used mainstream natural or synthetic perfumes so I don't know what genuine or synthetic musk smells like, and I've never smelled ambrette seed straight up, so I can't make any useful comparisons.  (I do know I like Beth's "musks"

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Beth uses sources like this, and bouquets of other natural oils, to recreate the scent of things like musks.