Are bpal blends all-natural?

[LadyMedb]

We probably should have directed Jayne to emailing Beth in the first place so it wouldn't have turned into all of this. I don't think she was trolling, just compulsively looking for answers in the wrong place because she's unfamiliar with us.

 

I think what Jayne needs is a good enabling.

[mineralgirl]

and that post is why we love Beth and BPAL so much!

[AliBabble]

i know this thread has been beat to death...but i just have to say...what makes luca turin the gospel? although he is a scientist, there are numerous articles stating that his "theory of smell" has no validity. here is one:

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/rep...port-27230.html

and there are more...

if jayne is so enamored of turin, and she's admitted to being obsessive about seeking the truth, why does she hold this man in such high regard, when his own scientific theories are so questionable?

just wondering....

 

 

[Voice of God]

We want everyone to remember that this forum is a fan forum. While the Lab does link us from their websites, they do not run the forum, and while much beloved here, don't really participate all that much here these days.

 

Because we are not an official forum, nobody here is suited to answer technical questions, like "how naturally sourced are the oils at BPAL?". We, as fans, can't even begin to guess, and it's the Lab's prerogative if (and how) that information is answered and how much detail about their sources is shared. After all, oil sources are part of the trade secret in the formulas behind perfumes -- and keep in minde, perfumery is one of the few industries where anyone can (legally) attempt to reverse a perfume and sell it, so long as they don't break the trademark.

 

As such, the best source to get answers to those sort of questions IS the Lab, not here.

[aine]

There have been some great responses in this thread, but my brain is too tired to think in long sentences so I'll keep my response to three general points -

 

* Not everything natural is good for you.

* Not everything synthetic is bad for you.

* Let's not kid ourselves that we have any right to expect that the presence of synthetics in BPAL oils is confirmed or denied by the Lab.

 

If you have serious health issues that you are concerned may be exacerbated by BPAL oils - don't wear the perfume.

[LadyMedb]

i know this thread has been beat to death...but i just have to say...what makes luca turin the gospel? although he is a scientist, there are numerous articles stating that his "theory of smell" has no validity.

 

I don't think she said he was the Second Coming or anything.

 

(I think he's a tiny bit of a douche, actually. shh )

 

My boyfriend loves him, though - thinks his reviews are interesting and funny even if he doesn't agree with them. If nothing else Turin has smelled a lot of perfumes - his and his wife's writings are probably a really good place to start if you want to learn something about them, even if he thinks Angel smells good.

 

There have been some great responses in this thread, but my brain is too tired to think in long sentences so I'll keep my response to three general points -

 

* Not everything natural is good for you.

* Not everything synthetic is bad for you.

* Let's not kid ourselves that we have any right to expect that the presence of synthetics in BPAL oils is confirmed or denied by the Lab.

 

If you have serious health issues that you are concerned may be exacerbated by BPAL oils - don't wear the perfume.

 

Pretty much!

 

I was really gratified to read the information that was presented in this thread, though - while I have no problem with lovely synthetic molecules, which often smell better and are certainly safer than MANY natural substances (!), natural oils have that whole magickal utility thing going (yes, I'm one of those - don't cringe), and that's a good thing.

Edited January 28, 2010 by LadyMedb

[Invidiana]

This is now beyond the scope of healthy curiosity. Please step back and examine yourself.

 

Agreed. I always strive to give people the benefit of the doubt, but as this drags on and on I'm just rolling my eyes. I think that question was more than fully answered by Beth's post. Reread it carefully and in depth. Many times we think we've read things to the point of understanding them fully but have actually missed some crucial details. I'm sure writing such an epic post and getting that specific took a considerable amount of time (I should know, I'm a writer), and that was time taken out of her grueling schedule to respond to someone who kept prodding for answers. Beth is probably up to her eyeballs in work and has no obligation to divulge her creative process to you or anyone else. By doing so she would be putting her business in jeopardy, and perfume is a tricky business because blend recipes cannot be copyrighted. Hell, I don't blame her either; when people ask me what my novel is about I only give them a 1-sentence summary and still worry about them leeching off my idea. It feels to me like you're just trying to draw her back in and be an instigator at this point. Please cease and desist and wait for your order to arrive before passing any more judgement.

 

Note: if you want to email the Lab, their Facebook page notes they're experiencing a major power outage so responses to emails will take longer than usual.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Invidiana

[hkhm]

We probably should have directed Jayne to emailing Beth in the first place so it wouldn't have turned into all of this.

 

i did.

 

i posted a mere hour after jayne's first post directing her to e-mail the lab with any questions.

 

[Yvaine]

We probably should have directed Jayne to emailing Beth in the first place so it wouldn't have turned into all of this.

 

i did.

 

i posted a mere hour after jayne's first post directing her to e-mail the lab with any questions.

Hey, apparently I did too, within 10 minutes of your post, hkhm!

[LadyMedb]

My bad for not reading far enough up-thread.

[carolsag]

I just want to clarify that the reason i was interested if the oils were natural or not,

is because i happen to think that they are all natural, but i do remember a while

back, reading something about Beth using synthetics in a few blends,

but that has been updated, i just want to know in the future, if there are any oils that are

not all natural if the lab would let us know, that way i would only wear those oils in

my scent lockets,as opposed to wearing on my skin.But what ever they use, i love them and

will always use them in one way or another, as long as i can afford to purchase them.

[jayne]

i know this thread has been beat to death...but i just have to say...what makes luca turin the gospel? although he is a scientist, there are numerous articles stating that his "theory of smell" has no validity. here is one:

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/rep...port-27230.html

and there are more...

if jayne is so enamored of turin, and she's admitted to being obsessive about seeking the truth, why does she hold this man in such high regard, when his own scientific theories are so questionable?

just wondering....

 

 

Good lord. I never said he was gospel. I do respect his opinion and consider him one of the most intelligent perfume critics I've ever come across. I find his writing interesting, witty and elegant. But I don't agree with all of his reviews, nor am I educated enough in molecular physics to comment on his theory of smell.

 

I can say this though. It's a THEORY. Yes, like all new theories it is controversial, but it's not so out there as to be considered wacky by the scientific community.

 

http://www.nature.com/news/2006/061204/ful...s061204-10.html

 

 

 

Honestly, this is just grasping for things to attack me with.

[naeelah]

i just want to know in the future, if there are any oils that are

not all natural if the lab would let us know, that way i would only wear those oils in

my scent lockets,as opposed to wearing on my skin.

 

I would assume that they would, since they like to keep people informed of changes and potentially sensitizing ingredients, and they know that their customers care about these things. The only synthetic scent so far was blatantly advertised as such, so I don't think there's anything to worry about.

 

But there again, only BPAL customer service can give you a definite answer.

 

[Laurel the Woodfairy]

Honestly, this is just grasping for things to attack me with.

 

 

[beachbabealways]

This is turning into a sad situation. I think this should stop.

 

jayne I suggest you no longer read or post in this thread and just wait for an email from Beth and Co.

[LaurieB]

This is turning into a sad situation. I think this should stop.

 

jayne I suggest you no longer read or post in this thread and just wait for an email from Beth and Co.

 

 

Hey everyone--We CAN make it stop!! --Let's go stalk the lunacy update--tonight should be the night!

[doublehelix]

This is turning into a sad situation. I think this should stop.

 

jayne I suggest you no longer read or post in this thread and just wait for an email from Beth and Co.

 

 

Hey everyone--We CAN make it stop!! --Let's go stalk the lunacy update--tonight should be the night!

 

LUNACY LUNACY!! *stalk stalk* I took a cold pill earlier, so here's hoping my brain can stay awake that long. i'm currently plotting other possible add-ons. muwaha

 

I'm just a tad surprised this thread hasn't been shut down yet :S

[cometgirl21]

There's an update tonight? Jeez, where have I been? I might stalk. No school tomorrow.

[krissstephens]

<---- is so tired of trolls

[cranberry]

I don't want to get the drama going again, but I do want to add a couple points.

 

first, there is the title of this thread "are bpal blends made from 100% undiluted EOs." so I don't think it is unreasonable do expect discussion about what is in the oils - natural, synthetic, vegan, etc.

 

second, that was a great post by Beth.

 

third, I do not think that Jayne was or has been a troll. Beth answered some of her questions but not all of her questions. so yes, I agree, asking the lab direct would be the best way to go, however, in keeping with the topic at hand, it is not out of line to question it here. or to continue to question what the oils are composed of here. Beth, in her post, did not address the question of synthetics, molecules or not. vegan does not equal not synthetic. synthetic was addressed a while back but it clearly was not most recently. that raises what I think to be a legitimate question.

 

I think aine summed it up pretty well.

 

There have been some great responses in this thread, but my brain is too tired to think in long sentences so I'll keep my response to three general points -

 

* Not everything natural is good for you.

* Not everything synthetic is bad for you.

* Let's not kid ourselves that we have any right to expect that the presence of synthetics in BPAL oils is confirmed or denied by the Lab.

 

If you have serious health issues that you are concerned may be exacerbated by BPAL oils - don't wear the perfume.

 

eta quote

Edited January 29, 2010 by cranberry

[Amoraexcena]

I personally think there is a good reason why the lab does not say a clear YES or NO to the "all-natural" question. Maybe even more than one reason.

 

Theoretical reason #1: First of all, because it is not actually a black&white issue. There is no legal definition of "natural," and therefore food labellers plaster this everywhere, including very processed foods, because there is some misconception that natural=good and synthetic=bad. Molecules that occur in nature can be exactly replicated in a lab (and as Turin's youtube link demonstrates, we can also create non-naturally occuring molecules). These molecules, both in vitro and in vivo, act exactly the same way in and on our bodies. There is no "memory" of the molecules' past; what matters is what the molecule actually consists of. Naturally occuring coumarin is carcenogenic no matter that it's found in tonka beans, 100% naturally- along with many other toxins in many different forms (poisonous mushrooms, toxic plants, frog/spider/snake venom...).

 

Why do people think natural=good? In the western countries, our predominant religion is thought to have affected our perceptions of good/bad. People are sinful since the fall of Adam and Eve, and anything we touch or create can be considered corrupted, or "bad" (man, create?! that's God's job!!! etc). We all know the literature, I won't quote or cite examples where nature/animals are assumed "innocent," "pure," "good." Having a conscience and not being governed completely by instincts is apparently a vice in this era.

 

Unlike the label organic, there are no guidelines nor governing bodies to enforce said guidelines for the label natural. For a food to be afforded the prestigious label of organic, it must meet specific federal standards set by the USDA. From the ground up: the soil must not have sewage or petroleum-based fertilizers, the crops must not have pesticides sprayed on them, they cannot by genetically modified organisms, any livestock must be fed 100% organic feed, and not injected with growth hormones or antibiotics. This is just for the USDA, and other non-governmental organizations have even stricter requirements for their organic stamp of approval. I'll come back to further significance of this later, it suffices at the moment to say that organic=legal term and enforced with fines, natural=nonlegal, vaguely defined term that totally depends on your perspective.

 

If the lab were to make the normative statement that YES, they are all-natural, they would then be questioned incessantly (and we already excessively have, in this 17-pages-long-thread that I doubt jayne or many recent forumers have read in its entirety)- "well, what does that mean?" To what degree are you natural- essential oils only? Any "chemical-processing" aids? "Are you SURE they're all-natural, if you're sourcing anything from outside your lab?"

It's a really big can of worms for a mostly-fans-operated forum. How much time do we want Beth out of her lab, not creating lovely oils but answering dry questions on a forum?

The bolded question brings me to my next,

 

Theoretical reason #2: The lab can't be 100% sure of all-natural ingredients, unless it actually picks all its crops and grows its herbs and spices etc- vanilla beans, sea kelp, spices from around the world, honey from its bee-farms.

You see, I worked in a restaurant for a long time, and I understand the dangers of a "100% guarentee." For example: allergies. Obviously, allergies are not to be taken lightly, because people can die or health severely detrimentally affected. The restaurant, while being reknown for its "Never say Never" attitude to customer service, will never guarentee that the food is safe from, say, a nut allergy, unless it has made all sauces, breads, anything not whole in the dish from scratch INSIDE the restaurant. Even a huge chain with big purchasing power cannot feasibly vouch for the bread from the local baker- the restaurant cannot monitor whether or not the baker stays away from all nut products, all the time, in his bakery. There are too many big "What If?'s"- what if the baker's assistant ate a granola bar right before his shift, he washed his hands but some peanut crumbs were left on his apron? What if there are nuts in the vinaigrette-maker's shoppe, and he uses identical mixing spoons for all his dressings?

Furthermore, and this brings me back to organics, even if the trusted sources Beth gets her building blocks from can be 100% be relied on to be 100% mistakes-free, 100% never change throughout their entire life of how they conduct their trade, and 100% stay "all-natural" to be whatever "natural" means to everyone , what happens when products are not organic? Pesticides on citrus fruit: many citrus essential oils are extracted from its outer skin by cold expression, I believe. How do you keep the pesticides away from the oil? So now there are possibly chemical compounds that are actually worrisome to our skin in the EO?

Or does everything have to be wild for it to be natural? Honey: how do we know that the bees, even if they're not from a bee-farm, did not visit any non-organic home-garden flowers?

The definition of natural, to me, is still in question.

 

By guarenteeing for all their contributors, the restaurant would take a huge risk legally (and of course, morally- no one wants an anaphylactic shock, or DEATH, on their conscience). They could easily be sued if they guarenteed safetyfrom the allergy yet health problems occured.

Similarly, the lab could be sued for false advertising and damages, trauma etc. if, say, a person with MCS (Multiple Chemical Sensitivity) had a reaction to an oil when it was labelled as "all-natural." The medical validity of MCS aside, someone with the psychological characteristics of MCS or odor hypersensitivity could sue. The USA is the Land of All Torts. And even if the lab wins, it could still have to shoulder the financial burdens of hiring lawyers, and implicit costs of time away from the lab.

 

Theoretical reason #3: The lab WANTS you to ask questions if you're allergic or sensitive to a certain substance. If it's an allergy, chances are you probably know exactly what it is, perhaps even on a molecular level. I'm not going to pretend I'm any expert on the subject of chemistry/allergies, but someone who is Coeliac (autoimmune to gluten) probably knows they must be careful with gliadin, a prolamin (gluten protein.) They will then proceed to ask whether the oils they wish to purchase contain these proteins (maybe this is a bad example, I have no idea what topical application of gliadin does to someone with Coeliac, since it's a small intestine disorder and I think different from an allergy... but let's pretend it can be a topical problem as well). The lab can follow up with this specific request. Maybe they can do chemical tests to determine whether these proteins exist in the oils. Maybe they can ask the people who helped make the oil's components (picked the vanilla beans for the vanilla extract? ) to make sure there is no gliadin. They may or may not be able to 100% determine the existence of certain molecules in the oil. But at least the customer's question can be answered directly.

There is a danger, if "reassuring" statements like "all-natural" are made, that people allergic/sensitive to certain non-naturally occuring chemicals will not ask the lab before testing the oil. If the orange-grower uses a pesticide that got in the essential oil, and the customer is allergic to something in this pesticide? This may seem far-fetched, but there is a small possibility of danger. Perhaps more likely, someone with a sensitivity to aldehydes joins the BPAL community. They have not read this entire thread. They read the "all-natural" label on the main website, and assume all BPAL products to date have always been "all-natural perfume," and free of aldehydes. They would come across one of the 3 "synthetic" prototypes, and encounter problems. Would the lab risk a customer's health, so that it can slap a superficially reassuring "all-natural" label on the website? Even saying that "BPAL all-natural" again, to answer a question in this thread, poses a risk- the newer members only read the recent threads and don't come across the names of the aldehyde-containing ones.

 

I'm tired.... sorry for such a long post.

Last words:

carolsag, if you are truely concerned about an allergy or sensitivity to a certain substance (ex/cthulhu tentacles), or a category of substances (ex/all shellfish), I would specify exactly what it is that worries you directly to the lab and not try to rely on an "all-natural" label. Honestly I'm a little skeptical of or MCS/idiopathic environmental intolerance. If you're sensitive to something and unsure what it is exactly, go ask a doctor. Chances are, the substance can occur in nature AND is reproducible by the right chemical labs- either way, they'll affect you adversely and you should make sure you stay away from it.

jayne, I doubt that Beth uses any of the synthetic materials listed in your wikipedia link. I also doubt that I should trust a wikipedia page that clearly needs more citations for verification as a definitive answer on the question of differences between synthetic vs natural perfumes.

 

Now let's all rejoice!: Candles Moon!!! squee.

[jayne]

So, I wrote to the lab and this is the the very prompt and thorough response I received. I feel very satisfied that all my questions have been answered.

 

The comments in the previous thread were frozen and I can't comment on that entire sub-forum anyway, so I thought I would post it here.

 

I'm not trying to drag this out, but it's only right for everyone to see the email themselves. I think it is pretty safe to say for future reference that BPAL is not "all-natural."

 

Bolding is my own.

 

Hi,

 

Thank you for your inquiry! From our FAQs:

 

We are extremely careful with the components that we use, as safety is

paramount. Essential oils are highly concentrated. Many essential oils

are extremely safe and have phenomenal therapeutic properties, but on

the flip side, many essential oils can be harmful, either because they

are skin irritants or because they may cause serious reactions in

sensitive individuals. Some contain thujone, some are nervous system

toxins, some are abortifacients. Nutmeg contains myristicin, myrrh in

high doses can be cytotoxic, oakmoss absolute is potentially

carcinogenic. Just because something is natural doesn't always mean that

it is good for you, so we exercise extreme caution when formulating our

blends. We stay as natural as safely possible in all of our lines, both

at Alchemy Lab and Trading Post - safely being the key word. There are

many natural components used in traditional perfumery that are simply

unethical to utilize: civet, castoreum, ambergris, and hyraceum are

examples. Our 'civet' and 'ambergris' are bouquets, and thus, are

composite scents created from plant-derived perfume oils combined to

best approximate the scent. The popularity of some plants in perfumery

has caused their decimation, and have driven some plants, like

sandalwood, to near-extinction. We never, under any circumstances,

utilize any plant material from an endangered species. In accordance

with our vision for Black Phoenix, we almost exclusively work with small

growers, distillers, manufacturers, crafters, and extractors, and

whenever possible, we work with organic and self-sustaining farms.

 

We do everything in our power to ensure that our products please our

customers while maintaining a high standard of quality and safety. To

that end, we employ components that contain essential oils, CO2s, aroma

compounds, pomades, concretes, absolutes, solvent extractions, accords,

and bouquets in our fragrances. We do not use any nitro musks,

polycyclic musks, or any other synthetic material that can be considered

potentially harmful. With the exception of the mineral oil in some

Trading Post products, we do not use anything that is petroleum based.

Our products are as natural as possible without compromising the safety

and health of our customers. We will not use any component, natural or

synthetic, that is deemed harmful to either the environment or the

individual.

 

We believe in compassionate consumerism, and in giving as much back to

the community as we can through charitable contributions, volunteer

work, and by supporting fair trade and self-sustaining growers whenever

possible. To cut down on waste and keep costs as low as possible for our

clients, we use minimal packaging and do not include paper invoices in

our shipments. We participate in the Green Power for a Green LA program

at work and in our homes, and have participated in fundraisers for many

fine organizations, including the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund, Hero

Initiative, the Orangutan Foundation UK, AIDS Project Los Angeles,

Covenant House, the Red Cross, UNICEF, the SPCA, and the Humane Society.

 

We do everything in our power to keep costs as low as possible, stay

connected with our clients, support other small businesses, and provide

our employees with fair wages and benefits while maintaining our

extremely high standards of quality and service. Our goal, both at Black

Phoenix Alchemy Lab and Black Phoenix Trading Post, is to share the

things that we love through the products we create while participating

in imaginative, innovative, conscience-driven capitalism.

 

Many thanks,

 

Bill

Customer Service

BPAL

Edited January 30, 2010 by jayne

[naeelah]

Thanks for sharing the reply. That is indeed very detailed.

 

At risk of causing confusion, I just want to add that nothing here actually means they're using synthetic fragrances. I think it's just the confusion of different meanings of the word "natural" -- the civet is not "natural" because it's a synthesized scent. But as he explains, these bouquets are comprised of plant-derived ingredients.

 

He lists the different sources (EOs, CO2s, etc), and all of those are naturally obtained. Concerning the musks, I don't know enough about them to know if he's saying they don't use *any* synthetics or they don't use unsafe synthetics.

 

Also, the atmosphere sprays likely use alcohol in the base, so that may be another reason they don't want to make a blanket statement of "all natural".

 

lord, that we can get such detailed replies and still think there's ambiguity! However I do think it's pretty clear that their scent components (possibly with the exception of some musks) are naturally derived.

[elenore]

yay! awesome statement.

[krissstephens]

I don't know about everyone else, but as a long-term, extremely picky customer I can tell you that I am completely satisfied and delighted by both BPAL's products and customer service. I am not sure what your agenda is here Jayne, but if you are trying to persuade the members of BPAL's forum that they are "tricking" us somehow, or ripping us off, you are totally barking up the wrong tree.