jayne

Smells of sugary lemon at first, quickly turns into an aerosol-like scent. It reminds me of the cheap toiletry kits they give you on long international flights. No thanks.

I've been trying to give BPAL a shot. I really have. I fully expected to like Snake Oil since there seem to be so many positive reviews and, hell, I love vanilla and spice and creamy scents.

I put this on and thought, "Well ok it's kind of headshoppy and powedery in a way I wouldn't call pleasant..very sweet... ok, very VERY sweet... ok now it's burning my skin a bit but at least that plastic scent isn't as strong as with other imps I've tried..."

And then I paused and realized that if I picked up this sample at any normal boutique, I'd have admitted it was a scrubber almost immediately.

I really hate this whole "just let it age!" philosophy. Isn't that what the lab should be doing itself? Holding onto frags like Snake Oil for a year or so until it ages properly? I don't go to winery and pay for a bottle of wine and happily trot off after they hand me a jug of grape juice. I don't expect it from my perfumer either.

Wet on skin, it was straight almond extract with a dash of maraschino cherries. Sickly-sweet.

It's been about half an hour. My skin is slightly irritated. Smells faintly of sugar and plastic.

Amusingly, this is one of the better samples I've tried and it's still miserable.

First there is plastic.

Under the plastic is soap.

Under the soap is spice.

flat, linear, boring.

Initial application: Fruity Pebbles

Twenty minutes to an hour: I get the tea and spices, but it's overwhelmed by an artificial chemical scent. I got some massage bars from Lush awhile back but I eventually had to toss them because they filled my bathroom with that same chemical scent. That slowly fades over the course of an hour, becoming very sweet instead. Entire scent fades away soon after.

Not my thing.

double post

I don't know about everyone else, but as a long-term, extremely picky customer I can tell you that I am completely satisfied and delighted by both BPAL's products and customer service. I am not sure what your agenda is here Jayne, but if you are trying to persuade the members of BPAL's forum that they are "tricking" us somehow, or ripping us off, you are totally barking up the wrong tree.

I don't have an agenda. I don't run a competing company or something. PM me and I'll add you on facebook if you really care.

When I have questions, sometimes I can be very stubborn about finding their answers. And frankly, being mocked and insulted for asking something any consumer has a right to know only made me more determined.

I am personally not invested in the synthetics vs. all-natural debate, I don't care which is on my skin so long as it is isn't physically or environmentally harmful. HOWEVER there are a number of people who do feel it matters for medical, religious and philosophical purposes. Their concerns were being ignored but they didn't want to rock the boat so they let it go. I don't mind making a fuss for them.

I was told a number of times by other customers that BPAL is all-natural, sometimes in a hostile manner. I honestly find it troubling that that misconception would be so widespread in a forum filled with lab staff and such otherwise knowledgeable fans. I find it odd that this wasn't already on record.

Of course, you may read that email and believe that "as natural as possible without compromising safety" is the same as all-natural. That's your prerogative and I won't get into that debate again.

So, I wrote to the lab and this is the the very prompt and thorough response I received. I feel very satisfied that all my questions have been answered.

The comments in the previous thread were frozen and I can't comment on that entire sub-forum anyway, so I thought I would post it here.

I'm not trying to drag this out, but it's only right for everyone to see the email themselves. I think it is pretty safe to say for future reference that BPAL is not "all-natural."

Bolding is my own.

Hi,

 

Thank you for your inquiry! From our FAQs:

 

We are extremely careful with the components that we use, as safety is

paramount. Essential oils are highly concentrated. Many essential oils

are extremely safe and have phenomenal therapeutic properties, but on

the flip side, many essential oils can be harmful, either because they

are skin irritants or because they may cause serious reactions in

sensitive individuals. Some contain thujone, some are nervous system

toxins, some are abortifacients. Nutmeg contains myristicin, myrrh in

high doses can be cytotoxic, oakmoss absolute is potentially

carcinogenic. Just because something is natural doesn't always mean that

it is good for you, so we exercise extreme caution when formulating our

blends. We stay as natural as safely possible in all of our lines, both

at Alchemy Lab and Trading Post - safely being the key word. There are

many natural components used in traditional perfumery that are simply

unethical to utilize: civet, castoreum, ambergris, and hyraceum are

examples. Our 'civet' and 'ambergris' are bouquets, and thus, are

composite scents created from plant-derived perfume oils combined to

best approximate the scent. The popularity of some plants in perfumery

has caused their decimation, and have driven some plants, like

sandalwood, to near-extinction. We never, under any circumstances,

utilize any plant material from an endangered species. In accordance

with our vision for Black Phoenix, we almost exclusively work with small

growers, distillers, manufacturers, crafters, and extractors, and

whenever possible, we work with organic and self-sustaining farms.

 

We do everything in our power to ensure that our products please our

customers while maintaining a high standard of quality and safety. To

that end, we employ components that contain essential oils, CO2s, aroma

compounds, pomades, concretes, absolutes, solvent extractions, accords,

and bouquets in our fragrances. We do not use any nitro musks,

polycyclic musks, or any other synthetic material that can be considered

potentially harmful. With the exception of the mineral oil in some

Trading Post products, we do not use anything that is petroleum based.

Our products are as natural as possible without compromising the safety

and health of our customers. We will not use any component, natural or

synthetic, that is deemed harmful to either the environment or the

individual.

 

We believe in compassionate consumerism, and in giving as much back to

the community as we can through charitable contributions, volunteer

work, and by supporting fair trade and self-sustaining growers whenever

possible. To cut down on waste and keep costs as low as possible for our

clients, we use minimal packaging and do not include paper invoices in

our shipments. We participate in the Green Power for a Green LA program

at work and in our homes, and have participated in fundraisers for many

fine organizations, including the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund, Hero

Initiative, the Orangutan Foundation UK, AIDS Project Los Angeles,

Covenant House, the Red Cross, UNICEF, the SPCA, and the Humane Society.

 

We do everything in our power to keep costs as low as possible, stay

connected with our clients, support other small businesses, and provide

our employees with fair wages and benefits while maintaining our

extremely high standards of quality and service. Our goal, both at Black

Phoenix Alchemy Lab and Black Phoenix Trading Post, is to share the

things that we love through the products we create while participating

in imaginative, innovative, conscience-driven capitalism.

 

Many thanks,

 

Bill

Customer Service

BPAL

i know this thread has been beat to death...but i just have to say...what makes luca turin the gospel? although he is a scientist, there are numerous articles stating that his "theory of smell" has no validity. here is one:

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/rep...port-27230.html

and there are more...

if jayne is so enamored of turin, and she's admitted to being obsessive about seeking the truth, why does she hold this man in such high regard, when his own scientific theories are so questionable?

just wondering....

Good lord. I never said he was gospel. I do respect his opinion and consider him one of the most intelligent perfume critics I've ever come across. I find his writing interesting, witty and elegant. But I don't agree with all of his reviews, nor am I educated enough in molecular physics to comment on his theory of smell.

I can say this though. It's a THEORY. Yes, like all new theories it is controversial, but it's not so out there as to be considered wacky by the scientific community.

http://www.nature.com/news/2006/061204/ful...s061204-10.html

Honestly, this is just grasping for things to attack me with.

I believe, beyond the information which has been posted here, that you would have to contact the lab to get information as to which blends contain synthetics of the type to which you refer. Being new to the forum, you might not be aware of the number of rip-off artists who attempt to profit from Beth's work by duping her scents, however it is an ongoing problem. This being the case, I can certainly understand a desire to preserve the integrity and secrecy of her recipes. After all, you wouldn't ask Chanel to provide the details of the sources for their scents and I believe she deserves the same courtesy.

 

That said, the lab has an excellent reputation for responding to people who have legitimate allergy concerns. As someone who has broken out in hives several times when sprayed with various department store perfumes, I certainly understand the concerns of the allergic and urge you to contact them with any allergy queries. I know they've been helpful with mine. The joy of having such a broad general catalog is that there is something for just about everyone.

Ok, I started an email a little bit ago upon the (many) suggestions of commenters. I need to focus my energy there, you're right. I'll send it out tonight.

And for the record, I understand perfumers can be very secretive about their formulas. I appreciate that. I'm not asking for names of companies or recipes for accords or anything like that. I just want a yes or no to the all-natural question. I don't imagine that information would be a huge revelation for scammers.

This has been stated before by Beth and others, but it bears repeating since there seems to still be confusion.

 

I think an important question which people who are wondering "are there synthetics in BPAL?" need to ask, and that is

 

Synthetic what?

 

 

BPAL is vegan (aside from honey), so that means every blend that lists leather or musk or civet or ambergris or blood or meat or milk as a note does not really contain those ingredients.

 

There is no real blood in your BPAL, I promise

 

But Beth will use bouquets to approximate the scent of those ingredients. AFAIK she blends those bouquets herself and what makes them up is proprietary. Fair enough, because if she listed step by step instructions on how to make her stuff everyone could just do it themselves and not buy her work.

 

(though I'm sure I'm one of many wondering how she got Gore Shock to smell like bloody meat with no animal ingredients)

 

 

So if by "synthetic" you mean "didn't actually come from blood/ambergris/musk/etc", then yes, those BPAL blends contain synthetic mixes, called bouquets. They are made from blends of plant extract (which is listed on the FAQ page), but together they make a synthetic approximation of a nonvegan ingredient.

 

Basically the only reason you'll need to know what, specifically, goes into a bouquet is if you have an allergy. So let's say, for instance, you're allergic to rose and you want to try a blend that doesn't have rose listed but it has, say, pink musk* (or other nonvegan ingredient). You can write to the lab and ask "Hey, I'm allergic to rose and 'SAMPLE BLEND' looks really good. Is there rose in that one?" And they'll let you know.

 

*I don't have any clue if rose extract is part of the pink musk bouquet, I just picked an example

 

Does that help?

Thanks for the explanation. I don't consider bouquets made from various essential oils to be synthetic. To me, synthetic means that you had to perform a chemical reaction to create the note.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfume#Synthetic_sources

"Many modern perfumes contain synthesized odorants. Synthetics can provide fragrances which are not found in nature. For instance, Calone, a compound of synthetic origin, imparts a fresh ozonous metallic marine scent that is widely used in contemporary perfumes. Synthetic aromatics are often used as an alternate source of compounds that are not easily obtained from natural sources. For example, linalool and coumarin are both naturally occurring compounds that can be inexpensively synthesized from terpenes. Orchid scents (typically salicylates) are usually not obtained directly from the plant itself but are instead synthetically created to match the fragrant compounds found in various orchids."

Edit: I know you all aren't going to be fond of my beloved Luca Turin, but here he is in a TED Talk discussing how he created a synthetic fragrance compound. It's honestly really fascinating and even if you don't like synthetics, it's worth a listen.

Here's some relevant posts from earlier in this thread (I edited them down slightly so that the parts that are relevant to synthetics in BPAL are easier to spot, but if you click on the arrow in the top of the post you can go and read the whole thing, if you want). (Also, I was wrong before - there are a couple of prototypes with synthetics around, some of which came from a forum raffle and some of which were iirc auctioned on ebay.)

 

I think it was removed when Beth started experimenting with aldehydes (the synth note in some unreleased blends like...Toxin, I believe?). Since those blends never made it to the catalogue, the response you got from CS makes sense. I seem to recall Beth saying something about the FAQ needing to be updated.

 

To the best of my knowledge, the full list of prototypes in circulation that may contain aldehydes are Toxin, Nihil, and Zero. They were involved in the forum fundraiser raffle last year. Nothing currently on offer from BPAL contains synthetics, or the Lab would be very clear about saying so.

 

 

Btw, I did email the lab, and here is the response:

 

Black Phoenix uses no synthetics, no fillers and no garbage. All of our scents are 100% naturally derived. With the exception of our honey products, BPAL perfumes are vegan. Our 'civet' and 'ambergris' are bouquets, and thus, are composite scents created from plant-derived perfume oils combined to best approximate the scent.[/b] Black Phoenix is entirely cruelty-free, as our four dogs, many fish, and resident lab cat will attest.

 

While we use no preservatives, our oil blends will last for over one year, if they are cared for correctly. Please keep all of our products in a cool, dark place to maximize their shelf life.

 

Unfortunately, we cannot further divulge our ingredients due to protecting our recipes from competitors.

 

The revision of the faq has been in the works for about a year. I've been insanely busy at work and in my personal life, so the revision ended up on the backburner. Kathy and Bill have a list about 60 pages long of things I should address there, and I'm still working on it. Honestly, it isn't going to get done any time soon. Sincerest apologies if that bothers people, but I just don't have any time at all right now.

 

After the sales of the Synthetic Line prototypes, I could no longer state that we have never sold anything that doesn't contain synthetics, so I pulled the statement completely lest there be a misunderstanding.

 

When I'm not bombed by a million BPAL and BPTP issues and the imminent birth of Junior, I'll get back to revising the faq. =)

 

I thought that this answered the question about all natural or not pretty well.

Thank you for digging all these up. I had read them previously and they were what I was referring to when I mentioned statements and retractions. What I gathered from this was that previously they were all-natural and they started (and abandoned) the synth line and so they retracted their claims on being all-natural. And the statement about being all-natural is the official statement and came after the abandonment of the synth line? And after the retraction, no new perfumes have been created that use synthetics?

You are the reason this whole conversation came up again. You brought it up. You started an entire thread because you were nervous about your purchase, and asked for more info. Other people wondered, I'm sure, but you definitely did "care."

 

Beth already gave you a much more in-depth, targeted response than I would expect most people would, as so much of the info was already out there if one were to just look for it. But that's not enough? You need to keep poking her

 

There is no way you're not being intentionally dense about this. Really.

I cared about whether they were using commercial prefabricated blends intended for lotions and candles. I got an answer to that and I'm grateful. Alternatively, I'm not personally invested in natural vs. synthetic (although other people with health issues are), but I would still like a definitive answer and have received no straightforward answer from lab staff about that topic.

Clearly there isn't enough information out there on the natural vs. synthetic question since many people give contradictory answers and the lab remains totally mum on the subject.

I'm getting annoyed with being picked on just because I want a straight answer. What kind of world do you live in where a consumer asking if a product is all-natural is the same as harassment?

To all who responded to my last comment...

As I said in my comment, I don't care if a perfume is synthetic or natural. I wear lots of synthetic perfumes. But I am a very curious person and I like getting to the bottom of something that I've start investigating. My initial question was:

I want to know if BPAL blends commercial fragrance oils to make their products. Are they essential oils that Beth makes herself? Are they essential oils that she buys? Are they synthetic oils made by BPAL in chemistry labs?

From everything I have read and based on everyone I have spoken to, I am under the impression that BPAL purchases component oils (some of which are synthetic) from small companies. None of those oils are pre-fabricated blends.

I don't like being told by numerous commenters that the oils are "all-natural" and but then have the owner of the company totally avoid discussing that aspect of the perfumes in an otherwise very thorough post.

I am honestly trying to be very polite while still getting clear answers. But if healthy curiosity from a consumer is "trolly" to you, then you really need to take a step back and examine yourself.

P.S. LadyMedb, you hit the nail on the head. Obsessively truthseeking is a kind of painfully accurate description for me.

Thanks for clearingy that up, Beth. It's good to know I'm supporting someone like you.

I'm sorry if my post came off as accusatory and not investigatory, but that was not my intention.

I do think that it would be helpful to have these things noted on the website with the very direct wording you just used in your post. In Luca Turin's blog, a lot of people pointed to the lab's ambiguous wording as an indication that something was awry. And this thread (going back to 2004!) seemed to have a lot of back and forth, with statements being made and then retracted, and no clear, conclusive answer from the lab staff. Even longtimers seemed to be very confused about the source of the oil.

So, to be clear... BPAL "purchases component oils from many, many small companies" and none of those oils are pre-fabricated fragrance/aromatic oils. BPAL is cruelty free. It is vegan, with exception to the honey products.

I read your post multiple times and I didn't see this address so if it has been, I apologize for seeming dense but... It is correct to say the oils are all-natural, right? That none of the component oils used for perfumes currently being sold on the website are synthetic? I don't care about these things but there has been a lot of confusion earlier in the thread, before I joined and it would be useful to clear that up now.

again, thanks for the response. it was illuminating.

Thanks for all the recommendations, everyone. I'll be looking into all of them!

I'd really like to find a perfect smokey lavender scent, an oil version of Serge Luten's Gris Clair. It's notes are

lavender, amber, tonka bean, iris, dry wood, and incense.

From a review of Gris Clair: "Cool dryness and sweet smokiness compete for prominence all throughout the development of Gris Clair. It starts with a cold, indeed “clear gray” accord of lavender, which makes me think about expensive, classic men’s after shaves and colognes. In a moment however, an unexpectedly sweet accord of amber and tonka bean appears; without reminding me of any fruit in particular, it somehow manages to convey a vague, abstract fruitiness. It is an enjoyable stage, but the best part of Gris Clair is undoubtedly the promised dry wood and “burned incense”. When these two notes come into play, Gris Clair acquires the wonderful depth and richness one associates with the best Lutens’s creations. At this point, all the notes are apparent on my skin at once: the chilly lavender, the honeyed amber, the smoldering ashes of wood and incense."

Jammies suggested Gaueko, Naeelah suggested the Erebos room spray, and sarahlaughs suggested TKO for lavender/vanilla and Liz for vanilla/smoke.

Anyone else care to weigh in?

 

Amber, incense, smoke. Grass and woods (sandlewood, cedar, cyprus). Vetiver. Cardamom. Vanilla. Lavender. Citrus, but not too heavy.

 

Even though this should go into the reccomendations sub forum, but since I asked, I'll tell ya...

 

TKO for your lavender and vanilla love.

Lyonesse for amber/vanilla

Sol Invictus 09 (it is limited edition and is coming down Feb 2 and no...you can't get samples of it) for amber/citrus/resin

Liz (out of the Hellboy collection) for your vanilla and smoke cravings. It also has leather. It's beautiful and one of my favs.

Inez out of the Carnavale Diabolique collection for amber as well

MME Moriarity Misfortune Teller (which is a representation of Beth herself) out of the CD as well for musky/plummy/resinous goodness.

Amsterdam for a sweet wet grass with a bit of "not-in-your-face" floral.

 

I'm not big on sandlewood (it hates me), vetiver, or cardamom (I hate it).

I don't know how I missed this before. I've been kind of overwhelmed with responses. I'm trying to get to everyone but I keep getting distraction. But thanks so much for writing all this up! Some of those combinations sound really fantastic. I'll definitely investigate them.

I can tell you that my favorite perfume house has donated at least $1,100 towards relief efforts for Haiti this month. How about any of the big houses? Any of the "fancier" houses? How about them? Can you tell me that off the top of your head?

 

It's called community. And caring. Beth & Co. do it all.

 

ETA: I'm done now. I'll behave.

Actually... I do know of a "fancy" perfume house that donated to Haiti, off the top of my head too. A portion of the proceeds Bond No 9's Scent of Peace always go to charity, and right now that charity is Red Cross for their work in Haiti. Before that, it went to Seeds of Peace.

I did a quick search and LVMH (which owns Dior, Marc Jacobs, Guerlain, Benefit, Fresh, Acqua di Parma, Kenzo, Givenchy) is a major supporter of various charities.

http://www.lvmh.com/fonctionalite/pg_liens.asp

Fondation des Hôpitaux de Paris – Hôpitaux de France

Association "le Pont Neuf"

Fondation Princesse Grace – Monaco

Great Ormond Street Hospital for children

Save the Children

Institut Pasteur

amfAR - Aids Research

Parkinson's Disease Foundation, Inc.

Fondation Claude Pompidou

The Robin Hood Foundation

You know, quoting Luca Turin and friends doesn't make you as snarky as the man himself.

 

What 6 blends did you order, Jayne?

Hah. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing.

And I went to makeupalley and selected ones that were popular and generally appealing: snake oil, old morocco, dorian, vixen, white rabbit, and dana o'shee.

Really, the best thing to do is try some oils. If you like the smell, wear them. If not, see if you can trade or sell them here, on makeup alley, or lj etc.

 

I will say that I tried a lot of other perfumes before I found bpal. Everything from classics like Chanel, Givenchy and Guerlain to Creed, L'Artisan, Demeter etc. I never found a perfume I could wear consistently without sneezing until I tried oils rather than sprays. I've had decent luck with oils from bpal, DSH and Sage Machado. Of those, Sage is my least favorite. I find that I reach for bpal and dsh with about the same regularity, but that I seem to get more compliments from my husband and family when I wear bpal.

 

To me, that's what matters. How I smell to me and how I smell to other people. The fact that I can afford bpal is nice too, but honestly, I use so little of it that I'd gladly pay way more. One 5ml bottle can easily last me 18 months, and that's with almost daily wear!

Thanks for giving me perspective on the whole thing. Honestly that helped.

Persianmouse, need you make fun of everyone? It's not necessary. You don't agree with the original poster, but it doesn't mean you have to insult her. Obviously, she enjoys commercial perfumes like we enjoy BPAL. It's not a bad thing and she is entitled to her opinion, just as much as your entitled to yours. And there's no reason to be sarcastic and mock her. However, you dohave a point. Bottles and packaging make up a great deal of the price, despite the product. You also pay for the name of the brand and if there's a celebrity endorsement, you can bet the price will go up. It can be perfume, clothing, handbags, make-up. Doesn't make a difference. You're not always paying for quality.

 

In response to the original poster. Try the perfumes first and make your opinion. If you don't like them, that's fine. But at least you tried them. And try not to let what anyone else says affect how you feel about them. Keep in mind though, oils are different than commercial perfumes. They're not low end cheap stuff. They're just different. And both are good in their own way. I still love some of my commercial perfumes. But BPAL plays different on the skin. Test them on your skin before you toss them aside. The components change when they hit your skin. It may be a change you like or it may be a get it off feeling. Either one is fine, but at least you tried it. Of course, there's been commercial perfumes that have done that to me as well. Some work, some I want to scrub my skin off to get rid of the fragrance (Chanel No 5 did that to me. High end perfume. Smells like crap on me). In terms of ingredients, I don't know what Beth uses, so I can't say anything there.

Thanks. You made a lot of good points.

It's funny. All the perfumes I'm into right now have top/heart/base notes, notes that evolve on the skin. I don't know if I've ever tried an oil that does that. That might be reason enough to test BPAL.

And for the record, I'm not a big fan of No 5 either. Powdery aldehydes aren't exactly my favorite thing... Chanel's Sycomore, though, is amaaazing. If you aren't bothered by alcohol, I'd definitely recommend it.

just out of curiosity, why? you still haven't said why that makes a difference to you.

 

and they NOT all the same price. it may not be an astronomical difference but the more complex LEs do run at least 2 to 5 dollars more expensive.

 

okay i'm going to expand on my line of thought on this, with a medium i'm much more comfortable with.

 

i'm a handspinner- i spin my own yarn. you can have fiber A costing $10 an ounce from one 'house' and costing anywhere between $10 and $20 an ounce from other 'houses'. there can be some discernible difference, but generally it's a matter of production cost, not quality. if fiber A comes out of a house where it's say $2 an ounce i might be concerned but i'll try it first before i start saying that it's too cheap to be quality because everyone else sells it at a higher margin.

 

if there's fiber B, with fiber B being a blended line that's being sold at $10 an ounce but everyone else is selling at higher prices based on colors, if anything, i'd be concerned that there was so much variation for essentially the same product, especially if other 'houses' are selling at roughly the same price point (which BPAL is for its market, actually). however, i'm still much more concerned about the quality, not how much other people on ravelry are selling for.

I guess it comes down to worrying or at least feeling like I'm being cheated or deceived. I want to buy products from people who care about excellence, not price or prolific production of a new perfume every other day. I don't want to be fooled by creative copy. Maybe Beth is spending day in and day out in the lab dutifully mixing her own essential oils to create violet, musk, amber or sandalwood from scratch. Maybe you all are right. But the blog comments planted a pretty big seed of doubt that I'm having trouble uprooting.

Seriously though, I didn't mean to offend but I was expressing myself in a true fashion and how I feel just as you did in your first post. No hard feelings. Maybe you should tell us a bit about your favorite notes and we could possibly point you in the right direction as far as blends to try. The ladies here are extremely helpful and very lovely when it comes to enabling.

 

May you enjoy whatever floats your boat and refrain from stepping on my grilled cheese while doing it. I mean that in the friendliest way possible.

Ok, ok. Fair enough. I suppose we can both stand a bit of honest from the other side, however misinformed we think each other are. Thanks for keeping it civil.

Notes that I like? Hmm.

Amber, incense, smoke. Grass and woods (sandlewood, cedar, cyprus). Vetiver. Cardamom. Vanilla. Lavender. Citrus, but not too heavy.