Macha

My mother was pretty solidly UU, and if there'd been a strong community in the town where I grew up, it's without question where I would have attended services. So all I remember is the literature she used to get in the mail on a regular basis.

Your experience sounds really neat.

But a perfume called "Walt Disney's Snow White" is in fact not the same as a perfume as "Snow White" - and for "Snow White" itself, Disney only has a trademark on makeup.

 

And as far as the trademark office is concerned... perfume Love Potion #9 is different from perfume Love Potion #13 is different from perfume Love Potion ... and "Walt Disney's Snow White" is not the same as "Snow White".

My apologies, QS. As a point of order, I wasn't actually disagreeing with you. I was saying, in effect, "I found the trademark, and you're right."

exactly...there is information being given on these various threads that runs from kind of true, to dubious, to flat out wrong. it's all speculation by a group of people who are not lawyers, and have little knowledge of the complex trademark system. and I feel that a group of people who are essentially customers, though well-meaning, should not be doling out edicts and "free advice" to another company to change names of products or risk legal issues.

Point of fact: several of the mods whe responded to this issue ARE lawyers, and IP laywers at that. They largely became involved precisely because incorrect information was being given out. If you're being very polite and sweet about telling ME to STFU, that's cool too, although I'm afraid I must apologize because I don't think I'm going to take that advice.

and not to rankle feathers, but my little web search took exactly 3 minutes and uncovered commercial perfumes for most of the examples sited. There is a such thing as due diligence, and one could claim that bpal is in no better a position than h&e as the information is clearly out there for consumption. or is it your position that because h&e and bpal are more "direct" competitors (vying for the exact same customer base) h&e should have been more respectful of using common names to bpal than bpal should be using a name common to a company like Escada or Bob Mackie? Because someone looking to purchase Disney's Snow White will never mistake BPAL for Disney? (that would not be Disney's position, but just for argument's sake)

But my point is that Beth DOES do diligence, so saying that she obviously hasn't in this case because those perfumes exist is not a convincing argument. You're right. I don't know for a fact if she has contacted those companies and has permission, or if there is some other reason regarding trademark that makes it not a problem. I will admit that I am giving BPAL more of a "pass" than I might give another company, because I know that Beth pays attention. But I _know_ (and know for a fact) that Michele did no such checking with BPAL while playing in BPAL's unofficial sandbox.

There's always a risk. That's the bummer of how the trademark system is set up. A friend of mine once worked for a company who had one of their intellectual properties yanked in a suit by a car manufacturer. No big deal, right? The company in question was a COMIC BOOK COMPANY. Someday someone will explain to me how a character in a Star Wars comic book could ever be confused with a Jeep. Yet the comic book company lost. Like you said, money wins. It happens.

And please allow me to clarify: I don't think Michele should have done this out of respect. I think she should have done it because she was pitching her tent directly in BPAL's back yard, and it was impossible that someone over there wasn't going to notice. Respect is why she should have obeyed the forum rules. Not using the same names as existing BPAL products though — I maintain that should have just been common sense.

It seems to me that you're saying....well, I'm not really sure. That we shouldn't discuss this less BPAL get into trouble too? That we're being hypocrites for pointing out H&E's missteps when BPAL may be doing them too? If BPAL is, then it's still wrong, nor does it excuse H&E's behavior.

The difference is that if next update Beth announces that she's pulling a fragrance or even a bunch of fragrances because of this, she'll likely thank you and whoever else pointed them out to her. I've seen her reaction to finding out something was "taken" and it's not "I'll use it anyway and hope no one notices/objects."

Of course you are right: ultimately this is a matter for lawyers, which is ultimately where anything meaningful about the matter will be decided.

I'm a little bit confused why this is such an issue. These etailers make their oils to make a profit, and doing underhanded market research is nothing new in capitalism and nothing worth the fuss that has been made over it.

To a certain extent, I agree with you, Tamburlaine. I might quibble a few points.

You are right, it would certainly be nothing new in the world of business that one company checks out the competition. Happens all the time. In point of fact, any new company looking to develop a business plan had best have a very good idea of what their competition is selling (preferably with hard numbers to back it up.) This is done not only so you know what works and sells but so you can differentiate yourself enough from your competition that that you create your own brand identity. You better believe the Lab checks out what their biggest competitors are doing — so they don't accidentally duplicate their efforts. Two companies coming out with a perfume of the same name on the same day? That's just embarassing. It's like showing up to the prom and finding out the girl across the way is wearing the same dress. And if the girl in question has worn the same dress to every dance this year, what excuse do you have for not thinking she'd wear it this time too?

I don't believe market research is a dirty word. I think it's smart. I think it's essential. (Can you tell I've worked in marketing for almost two decades?) I won't condemn any company for wanting to know what their competition is up to, or even for wanting to know that foodie scents seem to sell better than jasmine or that people (at least the people who hang out on these forums) really REALLY like ginger this season. Even with e-tailer restrictions, those sorts of things are not terribly hard to figure out. Go! Take that knowledge and fly! Be a success!

Now I must reiterate that Michele wasn't suspended for "market research" — she was suspended for breaking the rules about duplicate accounts and lying to us when we confronted her about it. No other reason.

However, if we want to address her behavior as it pertains to her presence on this forum, allow me to provide my own opinion:

When someone lies to get information on their competition (which we know happened,) creates polls asking the competition's customer base what kind of perfume they like best (which we know happened,) reads through the review threads for those types of scents (which we know happened,) goes through all the endlessly debated hoops to circumvent forum restrictions placed on her once her e-tailer status was revealed (which we know happened,) and then STILL manages to come out with multiple products that infringe on intellectual property rights and then claims that she didn't know BPAL already had perfumes of the same name?

I don't think that's very good market research.

Nor do I think it's good business (and by "good," I mean successful, not ethical.)

And I find I'm being asked to accept that Michele is a smart businesswoman, with twenty years of experience in the field, and yet unaware enough of the laws the govern her own trade that she didn't know that any and all ambergris possession is illegal in the US or that trademark law makes no distinction between "13" and "THIRTEEN" for the name of a perfume (or for goodness' sakes, that no one on the forums would notice or object to said duplication.) So I'm going to go the other way: I'm not going to criticize Michele for doing market research here on the BPAL forums — I'm going to criticize her for not doing ENOUGH research, because everything she's currently being faulted for has been previously discussed here on the forums, from the issues of IP law to what perfumes BPAL has previously brought to market, to the rules about duplicate accounts. (The only other option I have is the exceedingly distasteful idea that Michele knew the details but deliberately lied about them, ignored them, and chose to purposefully commit IP property theft. Only Michele is ever going to know the truth of her own motives in the matter, so by all means pick the version with which you're most comfortable. For the sake of civility, I prefer to go with the "she should have done more research" version.)

My too-long-to-get-to point is: starting up a new business is tough and I expect and forgive missteps, but only to a point. After that point, I expect people to know their business if they want to keep mine.

A lot of people have been throwing the word "trademark" around in what I would call a "willy nilly" fashion. Just because a company calls a specific product a specific name does not mean they hold trademark to that name. Trademarking is an expensive and lengthy process (as many who have been following the stitch n' bitch debacle know). I find it hard to believe a company that has several hundred products has trademarked all the names. I find it harder still to believe those trademarks would not have been challenged seeing as there are current commercial products on the market with the same names (namely the perfumes I listed in the H&E forum).

It is my understanding that while registering a trademark is indeed an expensive and lengthy process, claiming a trademark is a matter a bringing a product to market, just the same way that a copyright protects any work I create whether I have filed the copyright or not. (It's just a LOT easier to prove my claim if I've put in the extra work to file first, plus I get to put the nifty ® next to the name, instead of just ™.)

You're right: you haven't heard from BPAL on this. I would be, not just surprised, but utterly floored, if you ever did. If BPAL wants to take action their attorney will do so, and I'm quite sure no announcement of such will ever be made. It's simply not in their interests to make a statement on this. Personally, I believe they have a case if they wish to pursue it. The companies you've listed may also have a case if they wish to pursue it. Like I said, it wouldn't be the first time the Lab has discovered they needed to remove a perfume from their catalog.

Honestly, I don't find fault with any company for find out someone else got to the cool name first. It's probably happened to every perfume company out there. I've done it myself (and let me tell you, the fact that I had NO idea the other company existed and had come up with the name 100% independently and thought it was original did nothing to change the fact that I didn't get to keep it.) I think Michele has a hard time claiming she didn't know, however.

As unbelievable as it may be, Disney doesn't have an active trademark Snow White for perfume. Just makeup. Different classification.

I found it, QS: they have in fact trademarked their perfume as "Walt Disney's Snow White," not just "Snow White."

Truth is, it was your post asking for a forum to respond to that prompted me to write this particularly little mini-essay, so I feel much better now that you've happily found a place for your own post.

An aside: I'm not saying andrabell meant it in a snippy way, only andrabell knows that. She seems very adored by her friends and I imagine she is an incredibly nice person to her friends. If she doesn't want to be perceived as rude, especially in the course of moderation duties, she may want to consider refraining from closing her posts with "that is all." I've always seen it used in a light-hearted but snarky context, like for example of TelevsionWithoutPity, and if you use it in a serious one, it has the potential for looking, well....snarky.

First, I must admit I personally wouldn't have read "that is all" as snarkiness in a million-gazillion-years, perhaps in part because I don't roam around on TelevisionWithoutPity, and probably equal parts to do the fact that I am well familiar with how Andra sounds in print when she IS being snarky, and that's not it (not by a long shot.) "That is all" is Andra shorthand for: "just setting the record straight, carry on" and it's not necessarily confined to Andra. I might well have used the same language with no snark intended. Perhaps that is why it took all the mods so by surprise when the reaction was very strong. If our reaction was equally strong, well, we're only human too.

_________________

As for the rest of it...well...it's tough. We're all volunteers, and we don't always agree with each other, and we have a wide variety of backgrounds. Maybe if we had no emotional investment — but of course we do. I'm going to approach something from the marketing/advertising angle; other mods are experts on the legal side of things. I don't always bring up the point that Andra wants to make, or Embezel, or Quantum Spice — often because I don't KNOW the information that they know. I'm not sure that stifling mod responses is always to the good — there is a wealth of knowledge and experience on a variety of subjects that is currently not available because a mod has to double-check to make sure that they are not seen as dog-piling responses, and if someone else has responded, not reply. (From this you may surmise that quite a bit of discussion has occurred amongst the mod staff about ways to keep this sort of reaction from happening again.) [Edited to add: I'm going to point back to the difference between my response over on Filigree_shadow's blog, and Shrieking Violet's response, to the same comment. We both answered, and we answered in completely different ways. I like what Diana said, and I think she made an excellent point -- but it's not what _I_ would have said, nor in fact what I did say.]

Believe me, I'm not saying that mods are perfect. I have seen a mod asked to resign her position because she was willfully and purposefully attempting to intimidate certain forum members — I know it can happen, but I also know that we watch for that behavior too. That's part of why we have rules, part of why we can't just ban someone who's being an ass. We don't assume we're always right and infallible.

Honestly, I'm not certain that it matters any longer how we respond, or how many of us respond. I think that there are some members who are so hostile at this point that ANY response will be perceived as intimidation and oppression. Maybe I'm wrong...maybe I'm not giving people enough credit, but that's honestly the way I've felt of late.

I'm just not sure what to do about it.

Sorry, Indocolite: things have gotten busy so I quite forgot to reply to this.

Except to say: You WIN!!!

Details! I want details!

I love da GEEK!!!

Yup, I surely do live here. It's a big place. Just to give you an idea — I am an hour's drive from the Lab where I live and both of us are well within the "Los Angeles" area — make that a 3 hour drive during rush hour.

Is he going to be working here? Does he know where?...there are so many areas of the town, with varied housing costs. It can be a bit of a shock — the rent here ain't cheap.

*laugh* That's really funny.

Where is your bff moving to?

Celtic harp, but I wouldn't say I'm good at it. I realized pretty early on that I had time to practice harping or practice drawing, and I'd best pick one. I have a really lovely harp though — someday it will go to someone who will make proper use of her.

I bet you know "Behind Blue Eyes" too...or at least you would if you heard it. It's pretty classic. A few other others are admittedly more obscure.

That is an excellent point, Indicolite, and one I had not considered. Thank you.

Perhaps someday we will bridge that gap between a world where we can be shocked that people are being killed, and a world where they would not be killed in the first place.

Remember "A Clockwork Orange?"

I remember reading an interview where Anthony Burgess said that he had based Alex and his Droogs on the smart-dressing, incredibly violent street punks who prowled the streets of London in the 50s (Although it seems likely the book was at least as much influenced by the four U.S. GI deserters who attacked and beat his pregnant wife in 1943, forcing her to miscarry.)

And so I often wonder if it is that the youth of today are honestly more violent or not? It might help to clarify that the shooting I witnessed did not happen yesterday or even last year: if that young man survived he's since had time to marry and have children of his own. Can I blame it on the age? Or on the general poverty and inequity of the area in which I live? Has not crime gone hand in hand with poverty in every age, in every culture, throughout history? The gangbanger phenomenon is starting to span generations — with older members (who have survived) settling down and denouncing the violence of the gangsta life even as their children and sometimes grandchildren are running with the pack. It's easy to forget that the Bloods and Crips were being founded around the same time I was being born, and they themselves were the children of gangs formed after World War II (probably in response to the rise of racist violence directed against black communities by whites who were unhappy to see so many blacks moving to LA from the South.)

How chilling is it to realize that one of the most infamous and violent of youth gangs in operation in Los Angeles in the 1940s was called the Spook Hunters? And that violence went largely unreported or unrecognized...

It doesn't excuse the violence today (there is NO excuse) but I'm more inclined to blame youth, period, than today's youth. I think the argument can be made either way of course, but personally I suspect that we have always had a problem with "today's youth" in every age and every generation.

But I don't honestly know which idea is more depressing.

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise[disrespectful] and impatient of restraint" (Hesiod, 8th century BC)

Don't know. It was one of the least popular LE's when it was first introduced, although it's become more popular in the aftermarket.

In any event, BPAL hasn't posted a June update yet.

Fascinating. I'm reminded of all the phallic stonework they found in ancient Pompeii — of course those were attached to the brothels, weren't they?

But it puts me in dee MOOD....

Ahem.

I was about to say I have no musical training but then I remembered that I know how to play the harp and guitar. Anyway, it's focus tool for me, much the way BPAL is for certain characters.

I get a bit of an Emma Peel-like vibe from your rendering of her. Femme, beautiful, but not someone to be crossed or trifled with!

I do love me the Mrs. Peel. Thank you!

Absolutely hysterical, Heretic. I wonder why the emphasis on male genetalia?

Thanks for the photos!!

I tell people I don't have a TV and they just look at me like I'm some crazy woman who probably has a cabin in the woods and her own manifesto on the evils of technology. And then I have to reassure them that I still have the internet and I still have video games, and I'm not saying I'm better, just that I don't have time for that many screens starring back at me.

I think Gibson had some neat ideas, but he was quick to point out the potential drawbacks of any significant advance of technology. What's the quote? "Whenever science makes a discover, the devil grabs it while the angels are the debating the best way to use it?"

It seems strange to me, still, that in my neighborhood, which has problems with crime and gangs and the buses arriving at all (let alone on time) that someone down in City Hall took the time and energy to push through funding to make sure we had our TVs. It has an almost "let them eat cake" vibe to it. Spend that money on fixing up the buses, or keeping the fares low. That would be more helpful than flatscreens.

Yeah, I am at the point where I feel like I can hit it pretty close. Sometimes it's a struggle though. I've got a painting (of the same character, Weaver) that I probably spent two weeks on, and was never satisfied. And last night inspiration struck, and I had a much more workable portrait in about an hour. That's just how it goes sometimes. Weaver's always been hard to draw — she's lean and hard and very un-curvy (she repeatedly describes herself as flat-chested in the novel.) I always want to make her a little more voluptuous than she really is, problably because on some level I still envision her as a sci-fi take on a Chandler-esque blonde femme fatale.

Of course, I had some friends who did not have my drawing skills, and they would go through magazine articles and clip out photos for their characters. Create a little dossier. This is what so and so looks like, this is their house, etc.

The programs aren't hard to learn. Not really. I probably use no more than half a dozen tools in Corel Painter and they make it very intuitive. You can mix colors just like you would on a palette and the brushes will all be familiar. They usually have a 30-day free trial on the web site, which I recommend you try some day when you have the time to play with it. It's fun.

You are free to steal my ideas as long as you steal them professionally, i.e. make sure to sell them to a nice fence who will melt them down, recast them, and sell them to an unsuspecting public as something that couldn't possible have been grabbed from MY house. I think that's just called "research" and "inspiration," right?

Have you ever read "The Roads of Heaven" series by Melissa Scott? Oh, now there's a glorious use of an elemental magic system — all sorts of symbolic Hermetic alchemy, and what made it so fun was that it was science-fiction! So all the tropes of space battles and stellar empires, but run by elite Hermetic orders and secret cabals. She made spell-casting, the actual act of creating magic, exciting and sexy when she could have just said "X casts a divination." Good stuff. And of course I can't steal it — I don't think there's any chance in hell that I could do it better.

I think the biggest influence on my magical system was a book...oh, I'm trying to remember the name....I have it at home. Language and Cerebral development, or something like. Not an occult book at all, and certainly not "elemental." So I completely understand what you mean about taking inspiration from non-traditional sources.

I'll PM you about the specifics. Oh, there IS jewelry.

Fantastic post, Indicolite. Thanks!

I had a bit of a brainstorm last night, so I'm currently in the process of classifying phonetic sounds by elemental type (a whole lot of things in my fantasy world are divided up by classical Greek elemental division: air, earth, fire, water.) So I had this idea that instead of a male/female division of noun gender, that I might have an elemental division. Still playing with the idea to see if it will work. Ideally, I want it to be there but not hit people over the head with it.

Oh, I'm now officially envious, because I'm...well...NOT a linguistics student. So I'm sort of bumbling through all this, piecing it together as I go along and sometimes retracing my steps and sometimes becoming completely lost in the phonetic woods. I have bought a few books: I need to take the time to READ them and use that knowledge. So I have now created the proto-language of the common origin of the four main races of my book, and now need to drift that for the four species in the "modern" day. Create the equivalent of the romance languages, if you will, with some words occassionally cropping up that have changed little over the years and some borrowing occuring.

I have tried, as much as is possible, to make class and race apparent. The lower classes should not talk the same way as the upper classes, which should not talk the same as the foreigners. But I never really thought of that as a linguistic constraint per se, just attentive writing and use of voice. (I have been known to slip up on this one though. Isn't re-writing grand? )

The race that uses titanium is one of few races in my world that is genuinely immortal, and would be akin to elves. I thought it likely that their own word for the metal would be pragmatic and descriptive — unfortunately the early mythologies of the regions do not include a proto-giant race like the Titans. Other races would likely call the metal something that's the equivalent of "elven iron" I suppose. Haven't quite decided yet. The Vané themselves would probably use something like "cloud metal."

Some interesting consequences came out of the decision to use real world metals in a fantasy setting, btw. For instance, knowing what titanium can and can't do had a rather large effect on the culture that uses it. Not a lot of titanium swords running around, for instance — but a whole lot of arrowheads, and chainmail (because of those gorgeously ductile properties titanium possesses.) Of course, it's unlikely the readers will ever realize what I'm talking about, but I like to know.

You did all that language development last night? SO jealous...

Heh heh. Sorry, but Beth would KILL ME. And then Ted would kill me too.

I'm very much anticipating the Hungry Ghost Moon too. I can't wait to see what Beth comes up with for the perfume.

Yeah, it was always her baby. It's funny: BPAL.org isn't owned by Beth and she doesn't have mod priviledges (she can look at everything, but she can't change anything), but we are constantly accused to being owned by the Lab, while a huge number of people have written that they didn't know the AlchemyLab Live Journal was owned by the Lab when it was.

*sigh* Ya just can't win sometimes.

I DO know it was a huge amount of stress for Beth, and so I'm glad to see it go.