Fascinating post - thank you! It certainly made me think. I knew part of the story, but not that she'd sold so much BPAL here.

Wow. Thanks for writing up such a detailed entry; I apparently have only seen about half of the stuff that you've seen. I didn't even notice the "Thirteen" kerfluffle until I was going through anxious1's most recent posts trying to figure out what was going on.I'm going to have to do a little thinking. (Oh no, not THINKING! *shakes fist*)But seriously, I wanted to let you know that the time you took to write this is appreciated.

First of all, let me say I appreciate your concerns, and your desire to bring them to everyone. I also appreciate your psoting this here, in this manner.

I think this is the best way, because frankly, I think many people are having a hard time taking this kind of thing seriously in the H&EE forum, and I can understand why.

Irrespective of whether your concerns are valid and laudible, there has been a lot of drama in that thread. A thread, which most people go to to read reviews and issues people have directly with that seller selling them items. (At least so it seems, based on the responses to the recent postings.) My perspective would be that if the Mods or Beth didn't want people to do business with Michelle due to her behavior, they would remove the forum entirely. Which, based on your post, may be next.

After awhile the drama becomes overwhelming enough that it takes on a life of it's own and people just want to get away from it and get back to the product reviews. People are starting to feel persecuted for choosing to buy from Michelle. I understand you just want to make sure that's an informed choice.

It's sad to see someone taking advantage of the forum.

I will certainly have to do some thinking about what you've written, before making anymore orders. Again, I appreciate your bring your concerns up in a clear and well documented manner.

Thanks for your comments -- and thank you for reading what I wrote, to anyone who has read my blog entry but hasn't commented.

I certainly do not think that anyone is in the wrong for buying Michele's products. I ordered from her myself. Twice. But that was before I looked at the entirety of her post history here and not just the H&EE thread.

I know that a different person could look at exactly the same set of posts and form an entirely different opinion. Interpretation of any post is up to the reader. That's why I posted my opinions and my interpretations here rather than in the H&EE thread.

My perspective would be that if the Mods or Beth didn't want people to do business with Michelle due to her behavior, they would remove the forum entirely. Which, based on your post, may be next.

Ehhhh that's probably not what we'd do. Though the constant allowance=endorsement sentiment that keeps getting repeated by members certainly does make me keep thinking about it, but I try to avoid throwing babies out with bathwater. There are plenty of wonderful etailers out there and we like reading and chatting about them as much as everyone else, it's a fine line of how to balance the good with the bad. I think we'd sooner see a departure of topics discussing other perfumers (as this is not the first dramatic topic we've had concerning a competitor, it was about this time last year there was a round of Atropa's Cottage drama) rather than a closure of the retail area.

Oh and filigree_shadow, just wanted to make a minor correction:

Keep in mind that until this new competitor had her access restricted, she had access to all the members' posts about which scents they liked and didn't like. Just like any other forum member. She had access to etailer threads of her other competitors, where she could see what people liked and didn't like about those businesses as well.

After her access was restricted, she did still have access to other etailer threads. Everything in the retail section was still open to her. She was only shut out of Suggestions, Swaps, & BPAL + TAL chatter areas. Otherwise, very detailed post. I'm impressed.

My perspective would be that if the Mods or Beth didn't want people to do business with Michelle due to her behavior, they would remove the forum entirely. Which, based on your post, may be next.

If Michele does not follow our rules, she will lose access to the Retail Therapy section or the forum all together, and she is well aware of this.

I'm not sure what you mean by "do business" with Michele. It's not like she financially supports the forum, despite all of the people that have come her way.

Keep in mind that until this new competitor had her access restricted, she had access to all the members' posts about which scents they liked and didn't like. Just like any other forum member. She had access to etailer threads of her other competitors, where she could see what people liked and didn't like about those businesses as well.

After her access was restricted, she did still have access to other etailer threads. Everything in the retail section was still open to her. She was only shut out of Suggestions, Swaps, & BPAL + TAL chatter areas. Otherwise, very detailed post. I'm impressed.

Though, since she used her second account to view those areas... she (as a person) wasn't, just she (as that particular user) was. She's not the first person to use other accounts to get around restrictions like that, and I doubt she'll be the last.

Thank you for posting this information in one place. I share the concerns as well, which have nothing to do about the quality of the H&EE products - but mainly for the way that this board has been used to promote the business. I don't frequent many of the other e-tailer threads here on a regular basis (except for Villianess) but from what I have noticed, none of them use functions of this forum to conduct business. When I had problems with my order a few months ago, the only way I was able to make communicate with Michele was through PM from THIS FORUM...I was not comfortable with that - why is somebody who has a day job as an IT manager unable to straighten out problems with their e-mail so they can address communication with their customers properly? I tried joining the discussion board set up for the company but always had problem accessing it.

If Michele ever reads my comments, I'm sure she will think I'm being highly ungrateful because of the manner in which my previously mentioned problem order was "resolved". I don't want to go into details - but what I ended up getting was probably about $50 worth of product MORE than what I paid for and I had stated beforehand that I did not wish to receive extra products to compensate - it makes me feel very uncomfortable. Others say that she does it to be nice, but (in my opinion) nice is including a few samples or maybe with a really large order a full size body product or bottle of oil. Since my own problem order, I've noticed other posts that mention lost or delayed orders being resent and including a bunch of free product. This is one way to balance out poor customer service, but it just doesn't sit well with me. Does nobody else wonder how so many orders can come up "lost in the mail"? I've placed another order since which was received in good time (still with no shipping notice sent) but I've been sitting on the fence about doing business with this company for a couple of months now - but seeing the things itemized here on your blog posting has sealed my decision.

And for the folks who remain loyal fans of the product and support Michele, I'm truly glad that their experience has been positive - I'm not trying deflate the squee. But it makes me sad to think that if Michele had chosen to abide by the forum rules and not done things to circumvent the system then very little of the various brouhaha would have ever occurred. She is not being 'targeted' by the admin/mods - many of which have a good deal of legal expertise on top of good ol' common sense. Heck, I recently received a 'warning' for a rule that I was ignorant of...I didn't get my back up and think that I was being singled out - I just went "Doh! what an idiot I am!" and learned from the error and moved on. A forum member can choose to work out any issues they have behind the scenes and without it being evident to anyone besides the parties involved. I think it's pretty obvious that anxious1's continued disregard for the rules and policies of this forum (whether blatant or ignorant) is what has created the recurring 'drama' in the H&EE thread...not the mods and not the people posting viable questions about products or voicing concerns about the owner of the company.

Filgree Shadow, that was a very detailed research process/explanation, and I'm likewise impressed! I've seen the H&E thread in the retail therapy section of the forum popping up a lot in recent days. I'd looked at it when there was a bit of an Underpants dupe controversy going on, and didn't know what to make of it. I haven't looked at the thread very much since then -- I know she has her ardent fans, and I didn't count myself in the group. You see, I purchased some O from her last spring in her forum sales thread, and she did send me a number of samples. It was then that I realized that she was another etailer. I appreciated the samples, I suppose, but I just didn't like any of them. I didn't even test them, and I gave them all away. I can't even say what didn't work for me, except that they lacked the depth and soul that I get in BPAL blends. There was no vibration there, it was just a smell.

I agree that the "oh oops, I just didn't understand" excuse was lame, especially after it was used over and over and then she set up a second account. That's just plain sneaky and dirty pool. I saw the moderator's post about how second accounts weren't allowed, and wondered what had prompted it. I think the mods bend over backwards to inform people of the rules and give them a chance to comply; this once again seems to be the case -- they were very fair in their process.

I did scan the H&E thread a bit before commenting here, and some of the posts were effusive to the point of excess, IMHO. I have to wonder if some people were getting freebies in exchange for exceedingly glowing commentary on this forum. This might be a goofball conspiracy theory on my part, but seriously, I haven't seen people on this forum rave about BPAL/BPTP to such a fawningly effusive extent. Maybe H&E products are that good to some people, it's just from my experience, they didn't deserve such a lathering up.

So again, thanks for the summary of events -- I had no idea that this was going on. And just as a counterpoint, for the epitome of class, look at how olympia handled the opening of her Possets perfume company. Filgree, I know you've probably seen it, but if anyone else hasn't seen it and they're reading my long-winded response, go look at it. Her first post really impressed me as how a person of integrity would handle such a situation, and she continues to handle it with grace and style. Beth came on to wish her well, and that likewise was a very gracious and lovely gesture.

Thank you for putting all that information together in such an articulate way.

*lusts after your organizational and investigative skills*

I can't even say what didn't work for me, except that they lacked the depth and soul that I get in BPAL blends. There was no vibration there, it was just a smell.

Then *why* do people say that H&E is such a HUGE competitor to BPAL?? I personally think that the two companies are COMPLETELY different entities and have absolutely nothing in common other than they both happen to sell perfume. BPAL is all about dark and sinister, occult and magicks. H&E is fairies and kitties. They operate in such opposite realms of the perfume community that it's like proclaiming Wal-Mart and Versace are competitors because they both sell clothes.

I did scan the H&E thread a bit before commenting here, and some of the posts were effusive to the point of excess, IMHO. I have to wonder if some people were getting freebies in exchange for exceedingly glowing commentary on this forum. This might be a goofball conspiracy theory on my part, but seriously, I haven't seen people on this forum rave about BPAL/BPTP to such a fawningly effusive extent. Maybe H&E products are that good to some people, it's just from my experience, they didn't deserve such a lathering up.

And in my experience they do. Not only is it out of line to suggest that people who actually like this company's products are getting paid off to review them, it's pretty darn rude. And not to be snarky or anything, but I've seen people downright OBSESSED with BPAL. I don't recall seeing any H&E 5 mLs going on eBay for $$$$ like I repeatedly see BPALs doing. And I have repeatedly given reviews to BPAL blends that are just as, if not more, "effusive" than my reviews for H&E.

Not slamming BPAL in any way, they *are* quality and I love them. But I love H&E too and for anyone to insinuate that the only way people could love that company when there's BPAL around is because we get paid by the owner to is pretty insulting.

Her first post really impressed me as how a person of integrity would handle such a situation, and she continues to handle it with grace and style.

Yes, I loved how she referred to her own products as "frimps" and not one person blinked an eyelash. Yet, when the term was mistakenly used by a newbie to the forums when referring to H&E products, she got publicly embarassed and chastised.

I personally see a line that has been crossed by allowing these double-standards to continue. sCara and FeMaledictions has RIPPED PEOPLE OFF, STOLEN MONEY and REFUSED REFUNDS! Every last thing is illegal. Yet, people want the H&E thread deleted so the forum isn't condoning people doing business with her? Because why? She gives out free products?? She loved (and perhaps still does despite all the drama) BPAL (mentioning more than once that she loves BPAL more than her own blends and wears that exclusively)??

I really don't understand all the hatred directed at Michele and this company. And the arguements presented just really don't make sense. She sold bottles of BPAL on the forums? So do hundreds of other people. There are price caps in place to ensure that people aren't doing professional reselling of BPAL for a profit, but somehow evil Michele was able to sneak past all that with the "mods breathing down her neck at every turn'? Sorry if someone selling BPAL here doesn't raise any flags for me, it's such a normal everyday occurrance.

Why would someone create a 2nd account for "market research" when they can do all the market research they want at their own forums? Again... doesn't make sense. People, myself included, have posted the exact same post, word for word, from the Suggestions forum here to the Suggestions forum there. Why would she need to break the rules to see these posts when we're giving them to her freely of our own accord? And as for seeing BPAL reviews, it's the only section of the site that you don't even need to be logged in to see! So again, why create a second account? I'm not saying the mods/admin are lying when they claim Michele created a 2nd account, I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to me why she would.

I've talked about it before and I'll talk about it again. Voodoo Punani and Underpants smell ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ALIKE. Voodoo Punani was a customer requested blend for sugared sandalwood... nothing new in the perfume world. Thirteen and Superstitious/13 are ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ALIKE. Thirteen is a concept about blending historically "lucky" scents and offered on Friday the 13th. Superstitious/13 is just a regular fall blend that happened to be first offered on Friday the 13th. I think it's a little ridiuclous to proclaim that the Lab somehow "owns" a date to release perfume.

And furthermore... did the Lab even contact Michele on their own to inform her of this infraction that was oh so heinous? Not to my knowledge. And no one else has mentioned it either. So, I'm inclined to believe that it never happened. Even so, Michele changed the name immediately and is *still* getting attacked for it. Olympia has a disclaimer on her possets website about changing the name of a "Euphoria" blend because another company had the same name. Same scenario. Perfume company created perfume with the same name and later changes the name so as not to break any laws. Yet Olympia is "classy" and Michele is practically the anti-christ. (NOTE - I'm *NOT* attacking Olympia, I'm just pointing out these double-standards that everyone seems to be holding Michele to and uses to claim she's so "evil" or whatever)

Michele has asked that people who wish to hear her response/proof denying the accusations in this blog to please PM her on her own forums. It's poor taste to make up a decision when you haven't even heard her side of the story and do all of your complaining in a place that she doesn't have access to in order to refute anything. If you *really* were this incensed you would confront her directly instead of hiding behind bpal.org and listen to her side.

Just my .02. I hope my take on actually liking this company and why I'm still defending Michele is as welcomed and accepted as those who vehemently condone it.

Apologies for this is a longer post than I intended for it to go on.

Thanks for that, PilotKitten. You made a lot of really good points that I agree with.

It’s the obvious double standards here that have really been upsetting and disheartening to me. The mods quite honestly seem to watch the H&EE thread, hoping for a potential legal issue or complaint to arise, so that they can escalate it. This has happened so many times, it’s obvious and plain as day if you just read through the thread. It’s almost like the mods and a few people are literally trolling that thread and looking to start drama/suspicion at any available point. H&EE gets jumped on more than companies that have actually robbed customers and copied BPAL's scent descriptions. And for what, really?

And, like PilotKitten has just pointed out, there’s even a double standard with how the customers of H&EE are treated on this forum. On the H&EE thread (before the lab posted an announcement about using the term imp), the mods came in and started a huge debate on the H&EE thread, publicly calling out and embarrassing one of the H&EE customers for innocently using the term frimp in reference to a free sample oil. The mods noticed this slipup a day after it was posted and jumped at the chance. Several of the mods came in and were actually very defensive and rude, making everyone involved feel like morons for daring to be stupid enough to use the lab’s term “frimp” on anyone else’s oils. It was *very* poorly handled and unnecessary.

And… yet… olympia301 referred to her own blends as frimps in her own etailer thread on the bpal.org retail forum. And the mods didn’t say a word, and no one cared. No one cares. The mods rudely told us that it was important not to use the term frimp/imp and that we should be more considerate of the lab’s feelings. We said that it was an honest mistake, and the mods acted like we were idiots. Yet… they didn’t care when an actual perfumer used the same term in reference to her own products. That speaks volumes to me.

Do I think that the mods are bad people or even bad mods? Definitely not. For the most part, I love how this site is handled. But I think that the drama and picking on Michele/H&EE/and customers of H&EE is wrong and uncalled for and has been rather underhanded at points. I love BPAL. I love and like many people on bpal.org (and don't hate or dislike a single person here). But I also love H&EE and like Michele.

I've been around for and noticed all of the same things that filigree_shadow has mentioned. I didn't see any of those events in the same light. If you're trying to find something wrong or you want to believe that something is wrong, you can always find it. Maybe there were communication issues between Michele and the mods... that have obviously been blown out of proportion and escalated. But Michele really isn't the manipulative monster that she has been painted out to be, and H&EE obviously hasn't ever stolen anything from BPAL, which is clear to anyone who has looked at the site or tried the products. BPAL & H&EE just aren't anything alike.

First off, I want to point out that Oly made her comment in early August, and it wasn't until late August/early September that the Lab requested people stop calling non-Lab products as "imps", and October that they made the announcement at the forum that flat-out said not to call non-BPAL items imps.

Now...

Why would someone create a 2nd account for "market research" when they can do all the market research they want at their own forums? Again... doesn't make sense. People, myself included, have posted the exact same post, word for word, from the Suggestions forum here to the Suggestions forum there. Why would she need to break the rules to see these posts when we're giving them to her freely of our own accord? And as for seeing BPAL reviews, it's the only section of the site that you don't even need to be logged in to see! So again, why create a second account? I'm not saying the mods/admin are lying when they claim Michele created a 2nd account, I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to me why she would.

I have no clue as to why she created a second account, except that it happened the day after we restricted her account for being an e-tailer, and then she switched to yet another account within a day or two after we restricted her account again for being a suspected duplicate account (which further analysis of the forum logs showed to be accurate). The individual whose account it was gave Michele the login information because Michele "wanted to look at the H&E topic".

...which she did. Along with a handful of other topics she doens't normally have access to, as well as the topics for other perfumeries [which, for clarification, she does normally have access to].

HOWEVER, that said, I can easily see why someone would use this forum as market research for a perfume house: we've got a strong userbase, with a significant amount of comments and discussion about our likes and dislikes going back nearly three years. I don't know her usage rates as her membership is entirely closed and I really doubt she'd approve an account for me, but they can't anywhere near ours -- ezboards's fees would be up the roof if they were (there's a *reason* we're on a dedicated server, after all).

I have to leave shortly (class from 2 - 9 PM, wee I hate college), but I just wanted to say that even the whole 'she was using us for market research' thing sounds pretty far-fetched to me. H&EE is a small company, more of a hobby for Michele than anything. She's not planning on doing hostile takeover of the perfume industry.

And, quite frankly, if she were using BPAL for market research... I'd expect her to have some similarities to BPAL. And she doesn't. What could she get from this forum? Everyone here has different tastes. So far, Michele has done a lot of custom scents for people on HER forums. She hasn't been feverishly trying to recreate BPAL fragrances.

H&EE mainly has a lot of blends that are vanilla/tonka, use her antique patchouli stock, or are foodie. Which BPAL doesn't have a lot of. Her fluffy fairy scents don't strike me as being very similar in concept, feel, or scent component to the lab at all. She sells a lot of bath products, which doesn't even compete with the lab on any level. There are definitely more etailers on the retail therapy forum that remind me much more strongly of BPAL.

PilotKitten,

Your personal experience with Michele has guided your opinions of her and helped shape your idea of the kind of person she is. I have no problem with that. I hope you understand, though, that my experience with Michele has been a lot different from yours.... which is why I have a different opinion.

On the issue of selling BPAL for a profit... of course lots of people sell BPAL in the forums. The difference I was trying to make clear with that example is that MICHELE IS A BPAL COMPETITOR and the rest of us are BPAL FANS. Please just think about this for a second. I have no idea whether people sell stuff on Michele's forum because I'm not a member there (I'm not an H&EE fan, so it would be pretty strange for me to join the H&EE fan forum)... but I want you to think for a second how you'd feel if Beth was over in Michele's forum selling Michele's own products for $2 more each than what Michele charges. For one, I have a feeling that Michele wouldn't stand for it for a second, and I also have a feeling that people who feel loyalty to Michele would be incensed. That's exactly what's going on here. This is the BPAL fan forum, Michele is a BPAL competitor, and I am loyal to BPAL. I'm not demanding that you agree with me, I'm only asking you to understand why I feel this way. That's all.

Regarding the rest of your comments, especially the comparisons to olympia301 -- Michele has established a pattern of behavior that makes people not trust her. Oly hasn't. For me, that's what it boils down to. If Michele wanted to be treated with respect on her competitor's fan forum, she should have been more careful with her behavior here. She invited this criticism of her, in my opinion, with her own words and actions. Please notice that the owners of Ava Luxe, DSH, Wylde Ivy, Arcana Soaps, etc. are not in this forum stirring up drama and then complaining that they are being mistreated. Only Michele has done that. And I don't need or want to get Michele's side of the story because by this time I am personally convinced that it would just be lies -- what's the point of hearing someone's side of the story if you already believe going into it that whatever it is it's not true? (And again, that opinion is based on her pattern of behavior in the past.)

Also I want to point out something here that people who are Michele's fans seem to be forgetting: This is a forum for BPAL fans, created by BPAL fans, and paid for by BPAL fans. This is NOT a generic non-company-specific bath & body message board. Not even in the Retail Therapy section. First and foremost, everybody here is a BPAL fan. That's why they came to this forum. As far as I'm concerned nobody should be a bit surprised if direct BPAL competitors are scrutinized here more carefully than other members are.

As for the Voodoo Punani/Thirteen issues, I see your point. I don't agree with you, but I do understand why the feel the way you do.

Look, with my post, I was trying to explain to you why I think she is not trustworthy and why I think people should be careful doing business with her. If you've considered everything and you think she's a great person, that's fine. Really. If you're happy with her and her products, that's cool with me.

I do respect your view f_s, I really do. You manage to write your opinion articulately and not in the least emotional. Thank you for that.

It just seems to me that your entire problem with H&E and Michele's actions here on the forums stems from your belief that H&E and BPAL are "direct competitors" when numerous people have pointed out how, they in fact, are definitely NOT.

And whether people trust Michele or Olympia more isn't an issue. The issue is that the "rules" that people are screaming Michele broke are not being carried out evenly across the board. Those rules are posted in black and white on the forums. Regardless of personal opinion or levels of "trust", the mods/admin should be enforcing them the same for everyone. Which, apparent to me and others, is not what they are doing.

I also vehemently disagree that Michele has come to the BPAL forums to "stir up drama". Not ONCE has she done that. If anything, her actions taken here before her suspension and on her own forums (such as changing 13's name) were to get rid of the drama and bickering.

Again, since when is it against the rules to sell BPAL here? As long as they adhere to the price caps, I'm not sure why it's even an issue that you keep bringing up. Heck... if Beth went over to Michele's forum to offload her H&E samples or bottles it would be expected because it's obviously a place where people who like the products congregate. (and just to add, H&E doesn't have price caps in effect as of the moment so if there was a market for people who wanted to pay $5 a sample, then Beth would certainly be free to sell them there) She could've offloaded them on eBay for TONS more without the mods breathing down her neck and forcing her to adhere to pricecaps... but she didn't. I just don't see the problems here that you keep pointing at.

ETA - Michele was/is a fan of BPAL too. Somehow claiming that even if she's a "competitor" to BPAL shouldn't outright stop her from buying BPAL or banning her access to swapping/sales. If that was true then there are a couple of people in the retail forum with their own shops that need to close their sale threads now. I don't get it... people accused Michele of not selling to Olympia because she was a competitor (I never asked Michele's side of the story because I didn't really care about the issue) and oh how horrible that was... but now everyone insinuates that Michele can't buy/swap BPAL that doesn't work out with her? She sold 40 imps... and has a collection far larger. Hardly a professional reseller like Roostergrrl.

Also, I wanted to mention something else regarding this issue and this blog entry.

I am INCREDIBLY impressed with the thoughtful and mature responses I have gotten, both in this blog and in PMs. Seriously. One of the reasons I got so attached to this community is the level of fairness and understanding found in the members here, and I am beyond delighted that even when it's been put to the test, that maturity level is still there. I haven't gotten a single insulting, flaming, hate-filled response... and to be honest I was pretty much expecting it.

Thank you.

And whether people trust Michele or Olympia more isn't an issue. The issue is that the "rules" that people are screaming Michele broke are not being carried out evenly across the board. Those rules are posted in black and white on the forums. Regardless of personal opinion or levels of "trust", the mods/admin should be enforcing them the same for everyone. Which, apparent to me and others, is not what they are doing.

Well, we spend a lot of time ensuring that the rules *are* enforced evenly...so if you (or anyone) has a concern about a rule being applied fairly, you should feel free to contact us about it.

PK, I'm trying really hard to be fair. I am. Believe me.

I feel like I'm at a poker game and I'm the only one who knows that the cards are marked. It would be very difficult to try to play that poker game fairly when you have access to information that others don't have, and when you can't tell anyone else what that information is so that everyone would have an equal advantage.

Since I came forward with my opinions of Michele/H&EE, several other forumites have told me about their personal experiences/conversations with Michele. I'm trying really hard to NOT let that factor into my opnions... but I'm failing miserably. I'm afraid I'm just not objective any more. I know too much now, and there's no way I'll ever be able to give Michele a fair shot at redeeming herself, no matter what.

I think that at this point it would be dishonest of me to continue participating in this discussion, so I think I should recuse myself. I have said that my opinions of Michele were based on her own posts and her own public words, and that's not true any more. I hope that you will all understand.

And whether people trust Michele or Olympia more isn't an issue. The issue is that the "rules" that people are screaming Michele broke are not being carried out evenly across the board. Those rules are posted in black and white on the forums. Regardless of personal opinion or levels of "trust", the mods/admin should be enforcing them the same for everyone. Which, apparent to me and others, is not what they are doing.

Well, we spend a lot of time ensuring that the rules *are* enforced evenly...so if you (or anyone) has a concern about a rule being applied fairly, you should feel free to contact us about it.

Already have but thank you for your concern.

And I can totally respect your feelings on the matter f_s. I guess it's just an agree to disagree thing now. s anyhow.

As a general announcement to everyone reading this though: I would appreciate if people didn't come into the H&E thread solely to create drama. Not saying anyone here has done that in this instance... but it's happened in the past. If you don't like the products then fine, say so. But some people have only come into the thread to attack Michele or H&E when they haven't even tried out the products and only base their opinions on heresy. I think a lot of people have had their say about why they don't like Michele personally for whatever reasons and now that she's no longer a part of this board it would just be construed as trolling to continue to do so if they're in the camp that hasn't done business with her at all. Obviously people that actually do business with her are entitled to their opinions (as are people who haven't done business with her... I just think it's pointless to CONTINUE to malign her and the company here on this board and in that thread).

I hope that didn't sound too... well.. whatever. It's late... I'm having trouble thinking coherently, much less typing.

DING! My turn.

I can’t fucking believe this. Now I’m getting emails from people ASKING me to step in on the Heaven & Earth debacle. Do these people really want me to come into the thread and rant? You want to know why I haven’t spoken up? Two things: first, I was trying very hard to show someone more respect than they have shown me or our company, and second… the great, all-powerful, and almighty entity that is my attorney. He has a fantastic way of shutting me up.

I can’t add anything to what Filigree has already stated in her blog, suffice to say that I think it is very telling that the Heaven and Earth thread is perpetually rife with drama.

I’m sure Michelle is a delightful person, but I do not agree with her business practices. I think that her attempts to circumvent the forum’s regulations are shady, and I think her explanations for the origins of her products are tall-tales. This is my opinion. I have seen bottles on her site that cost less than a dollar to purchase from a local company that are being sold for $10+ dollars, and are being touted as imported goods. This isn’t the way we do things at BPAL, but who am I to judge another’s company? I kept quiet for many reasons, and it is PREPOSTEROUS that people should email me and ask me to defend my silence. As if being quiet or respectful or attempting to shut up and allow people to work things out on their own is some sign of weakness. Give me a fucking break, please. We’re in the middle of the busiest time of our year, and the last thing I have time to do is blather about my issues with another person’s company.

It is just such a pitiful cop-out when people blame the moderators for a kerfuffle that erupts. Can’t take responsibility for your actions? Blame it on the mods! While I think that loyalty is commendable, it is ridiculous that one would ignore that she has repeatedly violated the terms of service on this forum, and I think it is preposterous that Shriekingviolet’s motives or the legitimacy of the forum suspension are in question at all. If you are of the mind that this forum is run in that fashion, you don’t need to be here. The truth is: that is BULLSHIT. The administrators and moderators here are nothing BUT fair, and they jump through HOOPS to make sure that people are given a million fucking chances before any measures are taken. On just about any other retail forum, official or unofficial, posting with the sole intent of shilling is frowned upon, dupe accounts and sock puppets are a no-go, and let me tell you… it boggles the mind that anyone would think that the deliberate violation of the rules here would go unnoticed.

Personally, I think the issues that were brought up in the H&E thread have been extremely HELPFUL to the company’s owner, and, as an example, if I were in a position where my right to muscle in on someone else’s intellectual property was in question, and if I had no knowledge of how trademark law, IP law, or copyright law worked, I would truly appreciate being notified before someone was forced to hammer me with a cease & desist.

As you know, F_S, this isn't directed at you. =P I felt I needed to clarify.

PK, fwiw, although you are accusing people of "coming into the thread without having tried the products", personally, I have tried several of Michele's scents. Several of the other people who have criticized her business methods have mentioned that they have placed orders in the past or have tried her scents from friends.

But really, that is irrelevant. There is no rule here that someone has to have tried a product to make a judgement about the business ethics of the proprietor of the business. I don't need to make an order from some of the businesses that people have complained about in the "Buyer Beware" thread to start to make a judgement about whether I want to order from that business, or to buy some feMaledictions to be wary about the shipping problems people are reporting.

Likewise, I don't have to have actually given Michelle any money in exchange for product to dislike the fact that she has refused to follow the rules here and flat out lied to moderators and admins when asked to follow the same rules that every other forumite is asked to follow. I don't have to buy her products to dislike the fact that she was a member of this board prior to opening her own business selling perfume oils, targeted to an alternative market, with several similar names and stated note combinations to popular BPAL blends. And no one on this board has to be a customer of a business to point these things out.

I also do not mean any disrespect to the loyal customers of H&EE - I have tried several of the scents, mostly in the very generous sample sizes and purchased a few of the body products (which I think are awesome) and bought a couple of the layering notes which I like quite well. I agree that the products as a whole have no comparison to BPAL, either in composition or concept. I've never tried 'Underpants' but I did offer words of support to Michele privately during that whole exchange. But the 13/Thirteen thing was kinda cheesy. Whether or not it's a violation of any trademark or copyright or how quickly she responded to correct the conflict...the fact remains that it wasn't a very original idea and seeing as how many customers Michele has cultivated from the BPAL forum, I would think that she should have shown a little more respect for an idea that is a traditional offering from a company that she says she adores.

Although I kept quiet during the discussion, I was personally rather put off by the whole ambergris thing - it's illegal in this country ( . period) her defense that it's non-kill ambergris does not matter.

The main thing that really stymies me is what's up with ALL the lost orders? How can one company have that many things go "lost" and everybody still thinks that it's getting lost by the postal service? Once it happened to me is when I really noticed other people posting about similar lost orders and how she was nice enough to include more products free with what she resent. I'm NOT accusing - but I simply cannot help but question what seems to be a pattern.

I really don't feel any urgency to PM her for an explanation...my computer always glitched out whenever I tried to access it it anyway, so I deleted my membership there. I have decided that the manner she has chosen to conduct her business through this forum is not something I wish to support through buying her products anymore. This was something I was considering before the information posted in the past couple of days. And it's not likely that I'll be visiting the H&EE thread anymore. I will still enjoy the two bottles of layering notes I bought recently and the remnants of my tub of Fairy Queen body butter. I don't hold any ill feelings toward Michele and I hope that elsewhere on the forum, I can continue the friendly interactions I enjoy with those of you who I know are loyal H&EE customers.

Of course they don't. My point was... if 3 weeks from now after everything has died down here and someone just randomly pops in to say, "Hey... I hate this company and Michele's a bitch", it could be construed as trolling.

Heck, if *my* actions in the H&E thread while defending Michele could be construed as trolling, I'm at a loss as to why attacks on her character are perfectly acceptable and encouraged.

ETA - In response to the lost orders... I've only seen maybe 3 actual "the post office lost it" lost order snafus. The others were miscommunications with her assistant, streamlining things with PayPal vs the production line, and just accidentally overlooking things. All things that have happened to me at one time or another with other companies, including BPAL.

f_s, your post was brilliant. I hope lots of people read it. And see Beth's response.

This forum is for BPAL. It is linked to from the BPAL website, sending BPAL customers this way. I can't fathom the logic that says that any perfumer is not in competition with BPAL. They are both perfumers. They are competing. The "feel" of the company doesn't matter. LUSH and The Body Shop don't have the same feel. They are still competitors.

The fact remains that shrieking_violet has proof that Michele tried to get around the forum's rules by creating duplicate accounts. That is so outrageously sketchy to me. She's abusing a competitor's website to read BPAL customer feedback and get product ideas. Honestly, I think the admin and mods here are amazing to not ban her outright, but then, I have always found the admin to be amazingly impartial.

I haven't tried H&EE, but I do sometimes post in the thread of retailers I haven't tried if I have something to add. I don't do it out of a desire to stir up drama, but to either post a comment of my genuine reaction or to offer information. For example, I have never purchased anything from feMaledictions, but I posted when I had a comment about lost packages. Forumites aren't creating drama out of nothing. There's a reason the H&EE thread has drama, and that's because Michele creates it with her sketch business practices.